Pro Lite Class

TOYOTAPOWR · In rehab

Pro Lite Class

Trekka273 · sponsor

When you say the multiplaction factor, do you mean the turbo formula?

I don't know about the 2 litre turbo's being allowed in Pro Lite... There are some very, very powerful 2 litre turbo engines around.

boss truck · Rehab Dropout...

TOYOTAPOWR wrote:

There is a Jimco 2000 that is moving from class 2 to the new Pro-Lite class for the remainder of the season.
Are people concerned that this class too will become dominated by $100k
buggies or was in inevitable at national level?

Is this the same Jimco that couldn't keep up with the Raptor. It was going to happen no matter what, did you say the same about the $100,000 Jimco running 1650. Pro- lite isn't a budget class it is an alternative.

kuster · In rehab

TOYOTAPOWR wrote:

There is a Jimco 2000 that is moving from class 2 to the new Pro-Lite class for the remainder of the season.
Are people concerned that this class too will become dominated by $100k
buggies or was in inevitable at national level?

Also what is the likelyhood of 2 litre turbos being allowed into this class to get the numbers up.In my opinion the reasoning for keeping them out was flawed beause the statement made was the current champion ran a 2 litre turbo when in fact it was a stroker motor which was over 3.5 litre with the 1.7 multiplication factor.

Now that Shannon has gone to a v6 I believe the only 4 cyl turbo running at the pointy end in the nationals is Chapman and I believe that is a 2.7L.

  This class was never going to be a "budget" class at a national level.(what class is?) I beleive it was formulated to close the gap between the old class 1 and 2. At a reduced cost compared to Pro Class. I think the reasoning behind this class is right. You can build a Pro Lite at a reasonable cost to be competitive in its class and driven right will be a to 10 contender nationally.
  There`s no reason to allow turbo motors into this class. There`s going to plenty of competitors taking up this class. I think it will be one of the strongest fields in events to come.

And Bruce Chapman is running 2.5lt Turbo Subaru.

Just my 2cents.

TOYOTAPOWR · In rehab

boss truck wrote:

TOYOTAPOWR wrote:

There is a Jimco 2000 that is moving from class 2 to the new Pro-Lite class for the remainder of the season.
Are people concerned that this class too will become dominated by $100k
buggies or was in inevitable at national level?

Is this the same Jimco that couldn't keep up with the Raptor. It was going to happen no matter what, did you say the same about the $100,000 Jimco running 1650. Pro- lite isn't a budget class it is an alternative.

I am certainly not complaining - I am considering going to pro-lite myself and I run all the good gear too including an Albins sequential I was merely seeing what people thought and creating healthy discussion .

Stingray 2212 · Rehab Dropout...

This class is a joke. A N/A engine will always cost more to build than a turbo motor. This class, if it develops, will be the most expensive class of all. It would have made far more sense to allow 1600cc turbo motors & restrict the gearbox to a four speed. It does not matter what class you create if there are not basic restrictions the door will always be open for someone with a big budget to dominate.

trav184 · Regular Poster

If you are goin to come racing there is always going to be teams with bigger budgets.

'Is this the same Jimco that couldn't keep up with the Raptor. It was going to happen no matter what, did you say the same about the $100,000 Jimco running 1650. Pro- lite isn't a budget class it is an alternative'

haha settle down it was there first year of racing, im sure there goin to give the raptor a run in class 1, but what would i no im just another tyre kicker like you

boss truck · Rehab Dropout...

trav184 wrote:

haha settle down it was there first year of racing, im sure there goin to give the raptor a run in class 1, but what would i no im just another tyre kicker like you

Trav l was just pointing out that you don't need a unlimited budget to win. l am sorry if the driver of the car in question is your mate l didn't question his ability just stating the facts. If l had the money l would run a car like that myself but l haven't so l will run my state rounds and look for a benifactor to pay for my racing or get the left seat of a pro-buggy if l'm lucky. l might be a tyre kicker but l kick my own tyres.

100Kplus · Regular Poster

Firstly, I didn't realise that there was a 'budget limit' on every class. The only restriction that I was aware of in the Prolite class was the 3.5 lt engine capacity and also the engine must be NATURALLY ASPIRATED.

Secondly, I can think of another driver who has a 4cyl turbo car that I'm surprised you left out. He has numerous national titles to prove his ability!!!

Thirdly, I'm having a little laugh about 'not being able to catch the Raptor'. There are many differences between the two cars and if you can't pick them there is something wrong. Also I'm sure the driver of the Raptor is extremely experienced compared to a 'rookie' in his first season. The whole idea of starting in class 2 was to gain experience.

TOYOTAPOWR · In rehab

Point taken but as far as I know Mark has not won a round for quite some time and has been plagued by engine failures like you. Must be something about Hondas......

-- Edited by TOYOTAPOWR at 18:01, 2007-05-06

Ranga · Newbie

Well I guess engine and gear box failures are all apart of racing no matter how big you're budget or what make of engine you use, I'm sure there is a team in Alice with a large budget that has alot of trouble with there toyota powered buggy's. As for Honda's Mark Burrows has had alot of success with his and from where I camped along the track at finke last year the 1600 Honda powered Jimco did a nice job of passing you through the woops.

TOYOTAPOWR · In rehab

Yes you are right but if you were listening as well as watching you would have noticed we had a fuel related misfire that turned out to be a faulty fuel pump relay.
I also recall seeing the Honda on the side of the track later on with another blown engine -wasn't that 2nd for the week-end.

By the way the engine thing to me is just like Holden vs Ford and is all good FUN!!

jones off road · Rehab Dropout...

Stingray,
I don't think its a bit harsh to call this class a joke. A lot of people put a lot of thought into the new class structure, and what may not suit some people, suits others quite fine!
B.T.W. my prolite runs a 3 speed auto gearbox (or might this be classed as sequential) and my engine cost me $1095 (sorry, forgot to mention that I powdercoated the inlet manifold-$30)

MARTIN OFF ROAD · Forum Junkie

Hi all
This class will be a great class. I think there will be no class three next year in national then in one or two years latter class two will go and then you will have two buggy class PRO and PRO LITE what do others think.

Wolf · Rehab Dropout...

Great discussion guys.

RE $$$: Yeah - its ineveitable that there'll be bigger budgets than others. But a well sorted, well preped, well driven car can still beat cubic dollars. Thats one of the brill things about our sport - the terrain and nature of the events are a great leveller to budget! Chappo led for a substantial distance of Hyden in a car worth, what... half? of some of his competition? So it can be done.

RE 100Kplus (specifically) going to prolite: (Great alias btw!) Great! Awesome! The Raptors, Southern Crosses, our car etc will be the underdogs beating the *tongue in cheek* big budget evil buggy. Grrrr. :) Seriously - Its bound to happen. I certainly would love to be able to afford a sequential box, have more money to spend on engine, tyres etc cause it certainly makes things easier. But I dont begrudge the guys who do have these things.

RE Multiplyer factor/Prolite division rules: Last years news *yawn*. Sorry stingray but you'll just have to build a bridge as its been pretty widely accepted and give it a couple of years and I think it'll be very popular at national level.

If you think about it, its all a testament to the strength of offroad racing at the moment.

buzzard · Forum Addict

I think prolite will be fantastic for state level competitors on a
budget.

In NSW this year honda 3.2 v6 outright and first in class at dondingalong.

2nd,3rd and 5th outright and 1st,2nd,3rd in class at Crookwell.

Hondalite ??

Azteck · In rehab

To say Prolite is a joke after 1 national event and a handful of state races is nearly as stupid as saying a guy in his first year of competition should have won the National championship.
Given time, in my opinion, Prolite will be the class of choice for lots of off roaders, regardless of budget.
When all you need to be successful in off-road racing is a big budget, is when I will hang up the boots. Not that I have been all that successful lately!!

kuster · In rehab

I really don`t understand the issues that some competitors have with " big budget" teams. You quite often hear whinging and snide comments about them, when i`m sure if these people were in the same situation financially they would do exactly the same thing. ie New yank car, spare albins box and flash transporter.
These "big budget" teams are an asset to our sport and are making more media etc take a good look at our sport, which in turn will benefit our sport as a whole. Every one has had to lift their game, which is always good thing.
So i think these knockers of "big budget" teams should maybe pull their heads in and go spend some more time in the shed and come up with ways to beat them on the track, because when you do knock them off its a lot more rewarding!!

Wolf · Rehab Dropout...

Azteck wrote:

To say Prolite is a joke after 1 national event and a handful of state races is nearly as stupid as saying a guy in his first year of competition should have won the National championship.
Given time, in my opinion, Prolite will be the class of choice for lots of off roaders...

To give an idea of how prolite is going (by the numbers anyway) so far in the first 2 rounds of the NSW state championship there have been 39 buggies competing. Of these 39 buggies:

Pro: 14
Prolite: 10
S1600: 8
Sportsman: 7
Clubman: 0

I know of a couple of other prolites under construction (including ours) plus a couple of S1600's going to drop bigger motors in to move to that division. So in NSW at least its going well so far and appears to be pretty popular. Dont know if you could call it a success yet, but I dont think you could call it a joke either when its the 2nd most popular division at a state level series after only 2 rounds...

kuster wrote:

I really don`t understand the issues that some competitors have with " big budget" teams. You quite often hear whinging and snide comments about them, when i`m sure if these people were in the same situation financially they would do exactly the same thing. ie New yank car, spare albins box and flash transporter.
These "big budget" teams are an asset to our sport and are making more media etc take a good look at our sport, which in turn will benefit our sport as a whole. Every one has had to lift their game, which is always good thing.
So i think these knockers of "big budget" teams should maybe pull their heads in and go spend some more time in the shed and come up with ways to beat them on the track, because when you do knock them off its a lot more rewarding!!

Agreed. As I said earlier, I dont begrudge the guys with bigger budgets than ours, but that doesnt stop me from wishing I had more budget! Thats aside from the fact that it would get the wife off my back! haha!

And I dont think anyone was really knocking the big budget guys, maybe its just a touch of tall poppy syndrome?

dessert-people · Rehab Dropout...

i know this is not exactly on the prolite topic but i think i get to the root of the problem , if we had one race for the aust championship instead of 5/6 rounds and make winning a class battle more important than the out rigth victory , it would not be so buget driven that way and you would have a lot more cars turn up and you could change the venue ever year ie 1 year at wa then qld then vic and so on so on. furious

Azteck · In rehab

Azteck wrote:

When all you need to be successful in off-road racing is a big budget, is when I will hang up the boots.

Perhaps I should explain what I ment by this statement.

I think it is still possible to be successful in our sport without a big budget, and I don't see this changing anytime soon. That whats so good about off road racing.

This was in no way begrudging the "big dollar dudes". It's these guys that have made the sport the success it is today.

I can assure you kuster, all we do is spent time in the shed trying to find ways to make our car better.......trouble is we can't do much about the old guy behind the wheel. This is in no way begrudging any elderly fellow competitors.......with big budgets.......F250's.......5th wheel trailers.........and spare albins boxes.......except you Jones!......that's a joke by the way.

-- Edited by Azteck at 16:00, 2007-05-08

Wolf · Rehab Dropout...

its not a joke jones. he told me he not only hods a grudge against you, your F truck and your trailer, but that he hates you, your F truck and your trailer!

personally I think it was a bit harsh. I quite like your trailer. :) hehehe...

to come back o.t., I think the general consenses here at least is most people dont give much of a rats about bigger budget cars in pro lite.

Personally, I dont think it can be dominated by 100K cars - I think a 50K car could be just as competitive.

Re the turbo multiplyer? anyone?

kuster · In rehab

Hey guys, sorry if you thought i was pointing the finger, i wasn`t. Maybe i was just venting and maybe in the wrong place.
And as a race team that runs a few cars and by no means on a big budget, what we love about our sport is that anyone can come and have a crack at it. (unlike V8 supercars etc) And you don`t need huge budgets,(in comparison) to run competitively at a national level, but of course it helps.
And back on topic, i think the new Pro Lite class is a good call. As there are a lot of options for engines and they are all relatively cheap. We`re building a Pro Lite at the moment EZ30 Subaru 6 cylinder.
Now that jones has a decent engine he should go alright too. (if anyone needs a good subaru engine let me know)

P.S SOMEONE BUY OUR TRAILER!!!!!

TOYOTAPOWR · In rehab

My point about turbos in Pro-Lite was that a 2 litre turbo is under 3.5 litres using the existing multiplier.
In my opininion a 2 litre turbo is no longer competitivein Pro-Class.(Remember Shannon ran a 2.2 litre SR20 and Mark's Honda is 2.2 also.
What is the reasoning for keeping 2 litre Turbos out. Is it expense or to limit the horsepower.
Sr20's , CA18's ,3sgte's ,subaru 2L turbos and even 4agze 's are all easy to come by and a no more expensive than a 3.5 L N.A. motor given that most 3.5L V6's are modern.

Limiting horsepower might limit gearbox costs but people will run AGB's in this class anyway.

I run a 2litre turbo and I don't believe we have enough grunt to be competitive in Pro -Class so we will have to change power plants eventually to be eligable for Pro-Lite or to be competitive in Pro- Class.

The best thing that has happened to our sport in recent years is Ivans AGB which has brought competitors with money into our sport because you can run some horsepower and still finish races wheras a porsche 930 or G50 struggled with 300 hp and no one dreamed of running a v8.

A few years ago sr20's etc were every where in our sport but I believe they have been 'classed out of existence.

mario speedwagon · Newbie

well done to the jimco 2000,keep up the good work.I also follow the buggies and camped at the race and as for the blown motors, dont think of it as failure.Think of it as they drive it like they stole it,not like thier driving miss daisy cause miss daisy dos'nt like the woops!. Keep up the good work and hope the rest of the season is a good one!

-- Edited by mario speedwagon at 18:49, 2007-05-08

Trekka273 · sponsor

TOYOTAPOWR wrote:

My point about turbos in Pro-Lite was that a 2 litre turbo is under 3.5 litres using the existing multiplier.
In my opininion a 2 litre turbo is no longer competitivein Pro-Class.(Remember Shannon ran a 2.2 litre SR20 and Mark's Honda is 2.2 also.
What is the reasoning for keeping 2 litre Turbos out. Is it expense or to limit the horsepower.
Sr20's , CA18's ,3sgte's ,subaru 2L turbos and even 4agze 's are all easy to come by and a no more expensive than a 3.5 L N.A. motor given that most 3.5L V6's are modern.

Limiting horsepower might limit gearbox costs but people will run AGB's in this class anyway.

I run a 2litre turbo and I don't believe we have enough grunt to be competitive in Pro -Class so we will have to change power plants eventually to be eligable for Pro-Lite or to be competitive in Pro- Class.

The best thing that has happened to our sport in recent years is Ivans AGB which has brought competitors with money into our sport because you can run some horsepower and still finish races wheras a porsche 930 or G50 struggled with 300 hp and no one dreamed of running a v8.

A few years ago sr20's etc were every where in our sport but I believe they have been 'classed out of existence.

From what I have heard, Mark's Honda is now out to 2.5 litre.

But, having said that, I think that not having turbo's in the Pro-Lite field isn't such a bad thing. Maybe the SR20's etc may not be the ultimate engine in Pro class now, but you can still get some massive power out of them (at great expense of course). This would be the same for the Toyota 3sGTE and the Mitsubishi 4G63. For these engines you can get a huge range of parts that would quite easily give you a massive HP advantage over a 3.5 litre naturally aspirated engine. If you were to allow these engines in Pro Lite they would have too much of an advantage, in my opinion.

I am not to sure of the exact reasoning behind the class change, and I may not necessarily think it is the best solution at this time, however from what I have seen so far I am slowly coming aorund to it.

TOYOTAPOWR · In rehab

I agree but wasn't this the same point raised on this forum last year that the turbo v6's have a perceived advantage over the v8's in Pro-Class but both still exist in that class.

-- Edited by TOYOTAPOWR at 20:18, 2007-05-08

Ranga · Newbie

Are we forgetting the class is meant to be naturally aspirated, I think the whole idea of the class was that everyone was on roughly the same playing field horsepower wise, so it would be more the driver ability and buggy handling that would win race's.

Allowing turbos into class 1 will ceraintly make it hard for the 3.5's guys on the track and on the wallet. If you want to run a turbo 2ltr you'll have go open class.

-- Edited by Ranga at 08:23, 2007-05-09

jones off road · Rehab Dropout...

Why are you picking on me?
Yes I am getting old, yes I have a f series, yes I have a big trailer, no I dont have a big d..k. (unlike aztek and wolf apparently).
But I have been racing over 20years, I even had relatively good buggies when I was earning apprenticeship wages ($120/week) and was able to race competitively back then against what we THOUGHT were big budgets.
As far as I am concerned some people might look at me as a big budget racer (most know better), but on a national level I might as well be earning $120/week again!
My active working life has revolved around off road, many external opportunities have been missed due to the love of this sport, and all my finances have been poured into this to get where I am now. I beleive this to be an example of the true spirit of this sport.
The fact that we are all so dedicated that we discuss things on the forum, race beyond our budgets, beat the bigger budgets, spend time in our sheds, socialize around the campfire/pits, have interstate & even international freinds, is a part of what is the BEST sport I know.
Nobody should be begrudged about what level/budget they are racing at, just remeber when at the track how 'down to earth' every off roader is...thats all that matters!
Oh, and the fact that you can hang sh.t on other competitors...not that I would do that!

Back on track, NO- to turbos in prolite, NO- to only one aust round!

-- Edited by jones off road at 10:55, 2007-05-09

Wolf · Rehab Dropout...

Off topic: That same story goes around a fair bit I reckon... Most offroaders would have a similar story, and similar views.

My parents both raced speedway, I chose to race offroad instead because the competition looked like more fun and the people are easier to get along with. also, I can hang sh1t on them. :)

At the end of the day, I think we're all a little mad to do what we do. :)

On topic: - no turbos in prolite sounds right to me. Leave it as it is for a couple of seasons and see how we go!

One aus round - if you want to discuss it make another thread for it.