Will this destroy Extreme 2WD class??

spaz · In rehab

Will this destroy Extreme 2WD class??

Trekka273 · sponsor

I am not really sure of what the rules with this class are, etc, but isn't a trophy truck a similar thing? It is a full space frame chassis, A-Arm suspension on the front, with fibreglass body panles on the chassis to make it loom similar to a road going vehicle, etc. Isn't that basically the same as a buggy with a body fitted?

Danny Brown · Forum Junkie

I know chet huffman runs a jimco class 1 as a trophy truck in the states http://chethuffmanmotorsportsscoreclass.shutterfly.com/20

Wolf · Rehab Dropout...

There are already cars out there in a traditional extreme 2wd layout (IE engine & box at front to a rear diff), and by removing the panels are running in proclass with the buggies. So precedent is already set.

Extreme 2wd - panels = proclass (truggy)
Proclass + panels = Extreme 2wd. (is this also a truggy? Or a bruck?)

Mind you, I cant say Im for or against, just making a comment.

dan · Forum Junkie

In all reality, I'm surprised it's taken as long as it has!

car568 · In rehab

Wolf wrote:

There are already cars out there in a traditional extreme 2wd layout (IE engine & box at front to a rear diff), and by removing the panels are running in proclass with the buggies. So precedent is already set.

Extreme 2wd - panels = proclass (truggy)
Proclass + panels = Extreme 2wd. (is this also a truggy? Or a bruck?)

Mind you, I cant say Im for or against, just making a comment.

AGREE and must admit I like having that option being available to me.

I'm not totally against this obviously as per my previous statement, however there should be a level of control, but how do you define the class in such away that you can police the eligibility of a vehicle?

A previous comment indicated that a class 4 sorry old habit, Extreme 2WD was a front engined car driving through a rear diff. Greg's Porsche doesn't comply with that rule however you can't argue that the car complies with the true essence of the class. A production body with the original drive configuration albeit with extensive chassis and suspension mods. Bugger maybe I just answered my own question.

-- Edited by car568 on Wednesday 1st of April 2009 11:01:22 AM

Maurie Fuller · Forum Junkie

It is interesting that this class definition has only minutely change since it's inception in 2000.
It was introduced to create a class with few rules and more incentive to be creative.
It was also used as a default class for those who did not comply with class 5 & Baja(old talk)
The only difference that I can see from the rules as per a 2006 manual is the dropping of the following. "SR 4.4 In rear engined vehicles, the origional engine/gearbox/final drive configuration, in relation to the body, must remain the same."
At last constructors are using the class for what it was intended, an Extreme car that looks like a production car.
I was on the National Panel when this class was created, and also when the class 2 and 3 capacities were increased. Obviously these are only my views but it is an interesting discussion.

kuster · In rehab

I dont agree with that at all maurie, panelled buggy`s were never intended for this class. If you remember class 4 was for baja`s and then in the NORC`s wisdom they allowed TRUCKS(not buggy`s that look like trucks) into the class with the NORC`s chairman at the time giving his word that pannelled buggy`s would never be allowed into the class. As it is not what this class was intended for!!

Maurie Fuller · Forum Junkie

In 2000 trucks were pretty rare and were outnumbered by Corvettes, Karmen Ghias, Porsches etc. I was there when the discussions took place, it was not a class for TRUCKS only. Because of their history, Bajas were always assured of a home.
You must have been privy to a discussion that I never heard at NORC, sorry.
If we choose to disagree, so be it.

car568 · In rehab

One things for sure it's going to create a lot of debate and varying views.

I am looking forward to the discussion.

Trekka273 · sponsor

I'm not saying it is right by any means, but what is the difference between a buggy with a body on it, and a trophy truck with panels on it? Besides the layout of the engine/gearbox, I can't see the real difference.

car568 · In rehab

Weight, balance, less limitations/restriction in the design.

A buggy frame doesn't have to built to fit in to a production car body such as a traditional extreme 2wd. On this I would be interested to see what production car body was used for the Buggy that is currently in question.

-- Edited by car568 on Wednesday 1st of April 2009 07:21:14 PM

Magila · Forum Addict

am I missing something here ???
has anybody seen Gallards truck up close ???

and your worried about somebody hanging a body on a buggy
unless the guy's name who's doing this is Rentsch or Fellows, I don't think Gallards going to be to worried.

don't get me wrong I love these trucks, but every time they go out they seem to do panel damage unless you like repairing fibre glass all the time I don't see the atraction.

OH hang on, no CV'S, no transaxle gearbox, big wheel travel from the back end, more upright position for viewing the track in front, yes I can see the atraction. (fibere glass smells better than CV grease as well)

all thing's the guy who's doing this is missing out on.

kuster · In rehab

yes it seems we may have been privy to a discussion you werent aware of. As we were class 4 campaigners at the time we gave resistance to the new proposed class that would amalgamate trucks with baja`s. And the promise was made to us at the time,(by the NORC chairman) that vehicles such as Bob Mowbray`s Jimco (which is a buggy with a convertible beetle windscreen) would never be allowed into the class.

spaz · In rehab

Glad to see this has started some deep and meaningful discussion. What it has shown me is that if buggies with bodies can run in extreme 2wd and a space frame vehicle with a body can run in pro class for example then, whats the point of having different classes at all. We may aswell just have engine capacity classes and reduce the cost of the trophies. I'm fully aware that the buggy competitor will have a different point of view to the extreme 2wd guy as today's feedback has shown but what really matters is whether it is good for the class/sport or not? Will it force some competitors in extreme 2wd out of the sport? Or will it be good for the class and bring in more competitors to the class? Hopefully whatever happens the sport will not suffer. Please continue to add your thoughts as i have more work to do on the best godamn truck ever built in oz and you buggy lovers better watch your mirrors.
Cheers

Carbyman · sponsor

We were always going to put a body on ours and go in extreme 2wd regarless if we build it with a transaxle or we go V-drive .(still un sure) the enquires we made it was if its got a body then it goes in 4 no body into pro you go
I think they should increase the engine size so people could bring in turn key trophy trucks
Just my 2 bobs worth

Danny Brown · Forum Junkie

hey gavin when your done with the truck i need a chevy body retro fitted to a chenowth if you have time

delete · In rehab

I am also surprised it has taken this long for the penny to drop for some. To my recollection part of the reason to bring in Extreme 2WD/Class 4 changes was to find a place to put the growing number of stadium type trucks which were coming to Australia at the time. Also there was a seemingly decreasing number of Bajas competing at the time and no new ones coming in the forseeable future. So there was provision for a Class 4A and Class 4B when entry numbers made this possible. 4A for space frame trucks and 4B for Bajas. Remember that a couple of years earlier the AORC dropped the then current Class 5 and 6 for a merged new Class 5, and Class 6 went to those silly stock VW buggies. Bodied buggies has been a discussion topic around the pit campfires for a few years now so we shouldn't be surprised.

In rehab

I think it's funny how every time someone spends a lot of money or pushes the rules to the limit poeple start worrying about the level of competitivisity (my own word, I hope it doesn't wreck the english language) of their own cars. Once upon a time the fastest way around a track was on a VW floorpan with a couple of roll bars, back then I'm sure that my dinosaur was high tech but we still run that dinosaur & do OK within the confines of budget etc. I think the only way evolution will happen is by allowing people a free hand to design something that they think will get around a track faster, maybe Gavin may be right & make the only constraint (other than the obvious safety rules etc) based on engine size. It wouldn't bother me at all because I really don't think someone is going to build a super 1650 that weighs 3 tonne because of extra suspension bits, if they did thats surely their choice

Wolf · Rehab Dropout...

A little off topic, but I dont reckon you could differenciate classes only by engine size for all classes - production 2wd and 4wd still need somewhere to play!

To go back on topic; extreme 2wd merging to the buggy classes... isnt a buggy already an extreme 2wd? :p

To answer the original question, will a buggy with a truck body on it in extreme 2wd destroy the class... I doubt it. I dont think there are too many people out there interested in doing it. You might get a few, but I doubt there would be many.

Kick my dog · In rehab

I have been thinking about this topic for the last few days and still cannot decide whether I support it or not. The reason for this is I am torn between traditional offroad that I have loved for the last 20 years, and the changing environment and costs that could be assisted by making the average punter relate more to the sport.

As a traditionalist I love buggies, the shape, the concept, the fact that you can see all components working, not to mention the ease of maintenance. I do however now have an A arm class 2. So how traditional am I?

The concept of putting recognisable panels on a buggy is acceptable as a means of giving a recognition factor to the sport. Let's be honest Trophy trucks are exactly this. If the basis for this change is for someone with a pro class to now compete in a class that he can now get a trophy, I disagree. This is me being cynical and I feel that this is not the case. If in fact it is to get a recognisable vehicle to the front of the pack and in front of spectators and television then I would aguably support it.

My only question now is, do we just combine Pro class and class 4?

Sitting on the fence for the moment.

Wolf · Rehab Dropout...

There are a few class 4's, sorry, extreme 2WD that wouldnt be real happy with that I reckon!

BAJAs RULE · In rehab

The reason for the number of Baja's disappearing in my opinion, was the fact that there was not much point building one with all the restictions we had, to compete against the stadium trucks which as far as I was aware the only real restriction was that it had to look like a production car with your eyes squinted and was not smaller than the original.

At the end of the day who really cares. I'm in it for the fun, And I try to beat as many people as I can regardless of class.

I Know it's been a while since I've raced but in the last year of the old structured classes I nearly won the state championship in class 1, in a still legal class 4 Baja. and the only reason I raced in class 1, was because there wasn,t anyone racing in class 4, so if we can get more into it good on them, what ever it is.

You will never make everyone happy, and the more you try the less there will be.

dessert-people · Rehab Dropout...

i think its a little bit early to be talking about combining pro and 4 just because one bloke built one car , we had a chance to fix the classes up 3 years ago but it looks like we didnt acheive much at all we are back to were we started as far as i can see furious

car568 · In rehab

Adam has raised some good points.

If this person is doing this for the right reason then good luck to him but if it's just to potentially increase his chance of getting in the points. He could be in for a shock, as the current crop of Extreme 2WD cars/trucks and drivers will not make that easy for him.

If my memory serves me correctly (often doesn't) didn't Brad Gallard's old car first ran as a truggy, before getting the Silverado body panels? That didn't hurt the class he ended up investing heavily in the class and is doing his bit for off road racing in general.

Maybe all this hype isn't currently necessary, if there is a huge influx of cars taking this option it may need somebody to address it but if it's only 1 or 2 cars?

George · Newbie

i believe the person who did this did it for the right reasons, to get a good sponsor on board and the only way they could get this sponsor was to turn the buggy in to something the punters can relate to. THE RIGHT REASON IF YOU ASK GEORGE. If thats how the rules read for now then go for it.

kuster · In rehab

who`s george?

car568 · In rehab

It doesn't matter who George is but if in order to secure a sponsor the panels had to go on the car, then I don't think anybody would have an issue with that as we all know how hard they are to get. Sponsors that is.

I would do it i a heart beat and the whole point of building a truggy was so I would never have to repair fibre glass again.

-- Edited by car568 on Friday 3rd of April 2009 12:40:50 PM

BAJAs RULE · In rehab

George is Mildrid's Husband.

or it might be the new off road team "Get excited off road group etc."

-- Edited by BAJAs RULE on Friday 3rd of April 2009 10:26:20 AM

-- Edited by BAJAs RULE on Friday 3rd of April 2009 10:49:03 AM

Azteck · In rehab

If this car had a Porsche body on it, would we be having this debate?
What makes a buggy a buggy?
What makes a truck a truck?

I guess I'm a buggy guy so I don't see what the fuss is about. But as far as I'm concerned if it looks like a truck, then its a truck! And thats what most people on the street would say too.

It would appear that class 4 has done a full circle, Bajas get pushed out by stadium trucks, stadium trucks now get pushed out by buggies! Thats eveloution guys, you can't stop it!

If it's tradition that you lust, go to improved production, after all thats where the sedans started.

Dont forget, the guy who has done this has done more to raise the profile of our sport in the last few years than most of us put together....I think he even sponsors this very site.

There are far more important issues that need to be addressed in our sport before we have to worry about buggies with bodies on them.

I hope I'm not alone when I say "DON'T INCREASE ENGINE CAPACITY" these cars are going way to fast with engines they have now.

I agree SPAZ the car you are building is a masterpiece, but I don't think the buggies will need to watch their mirrors just yet!