Class Structure Going Forward

FOA Prolite · Rehab Dropout...

Class Structure Going Forward

Wolf · Rehab Dropout...

isnt that what we've already got?

FOA Prolite · Rehab Dropout...

It is close to what we have already it's only tweeking it slightly, I would like to see super 1650 changed to one or two seat chassis, and I should of clarified sportsman to beam only front end, kombi gearbox only and as it is now upto 1350cc to keep the costs down.

-- Edited by FOA Prolite on Tuesday 23rd of June 2009 04:25:26 PM

delete · In rehab

FOA Prolite wrote:

It is close to what we have already it's only tweeking it slightly, I would like to see super 1650 changed to one or two seat chassis, and I should of clarified sportsman to beam only front end, kombi gearbox only and as it is now upto 1350cc to keep the costs down.

-- Edited by FOA Prolite on Tuesday 23rd of June 2009 04:25:26 PM

100% agree with your thoughts on Sportsman. Beam, Kombi, 2 seats, 1350cc. Entry level class. I disagree with Super 1650 as removing 80kg from a 1600cc buggy could be a performance advantage. The Pro and Prolites would feel less affect from the weight drop due to their higher horsepower/engine capacity. Keep Super 1650 as it is. It may be worth thinking about the merits of merging the 2 2WD classes and 4WD classes with the proviso that if enough of each group enter e.g. Prod 4WD and Extr 4WD then they could be split. Just a thought.

Trekka273 · sponsor

Have to agree with Dusteater, I don't like the idea of 1 or 2 seats in a Super 1650. I know if I was running and that rule came in there is no way in the world I would run a navigator as it makes a mssive difference in a car with such limited power. I know when we ran class 2, as it was then, and we did some testing at different times we would often run with one person in the car and it felt a lot different to drive.

Stingray 2212 · Rehab Dropout...

How about this for national events only.

Pro Class
Pro Light- all cars up to 3500cc
Extreme 2wd
Performance 2wd
4wd.

1650 numbers have been well down for a couple of years now, sportsman almost non existant, production 4wd the same. If 1650 or sportsman want to compete in the national component of the event they can go into pro light. As I said in the other thread, I would make it compulsary, where possible, to have a state component at all national events.

LIAbillity · Rehab Dropout...

what about bumping class 2 to a max of 2.0l n/a,
alot of manufactures are not producing high out put 1600's anymore ,
toyota stoped making the 20 valves over 10 years ago !

but there are alot of new high tech hi output 2.0l hiting the import market ,
most kombi or reno boxs would handle a n/a 2.0l these days
and it should stay a 2 seater class ,
just my 2 bobs worth any way

delete · In rehab

No I don't think upping the Super 1650s to Super 2 Litre (Super Touring :) is a good idea. There are still plenty of 1600cc engines around. You dont have to run a 20 valve 4AGE, it isn't Formula Toyota. Besides think of the expense you would be forcing current competitors into just to remain competitive. Just think how much faster an SR20 powered buggy would be to a 4AGE. Nice idea but I don't think its warranted. Good to see people thinking.

Wolf · Rehab Dropout...

i think a production 4wd class should remain. At nat level, and in WA theyve got a good following, and you have to leave a door open somewhere for manufacturer support. 1300 and 1600 should stay as they are too. I think the real questin is should class divisions be different for national rounds compared to state/club?

Rusty Nutz · Forum Junkie

Ok, Well im a youngen compared to all you blokes. (No Offence of Course) but figure since Im actually competeing now and I have been around the sport since I was born which is 21 years now, I can have a say in this one too.

So remeber this is coming from a young Competitor... You know what class structer would work and use to work really WELL.

Class 1 Class 2 Class 3 Class 4 Class 5 Class 6 Class 7 Class 8 Class 9

Why root a system that worked well for the 21 years that I saw. Plus a lot of years that I didnt see.
And dont tell me it was to promote the sport for TV because I dont believe the class restructre helped that at all.

boss truck · Rehab Dropout...

Trekka273 wrote:

Have to agree with Dusteater, I don't like the idea of 1 or 2 seats in a Super 1650. I know if I was running and that rule came in there is no way in the world I would run a navigator as it makes a mssive difference in a car with such limited power. I know when we ran class 2, as it was then, and we did some testing at different times we would often run with one person in the car and it felt a lot different to drive.

Could there be a minimum weight if class 2 went to single seat as well.

scooter · Forum Addict

if it aint broke dont try and fix it. leave classes alone

Wolf · Rehab Dropout...

Thats my vote too.

FULLSCALE · Forum Addict

I like things pretty much as they are but as class6 is being given the flick how about this.
Pro Buggy as is.
Pro lite as is
class 2 to 1800cc Motors available from nearly every manufacturer in current model cars
class 3 to as is
xtreme 2wd to engine driveline cofigeration as per body used
prodution 2wd as is
class6 baja's
production 4wd as is
class9 limited 2wd. engine possition as per extreme 2wd but to 3000cc on limite wheel base (ie trophy lite)
thought it may keep the thread going a bit longer

scooter · Forum Addict

wrecking vards are still full of 1600cc engines i cant see the reason to change the capacity for class 2 or super 1650 as they now call it.

scooter · Forum Addict

here i am again this tme on the soap box . just a quick look through last years nsw state round entry lists and the super 1650 is the most popular class . maybe his class works leave it alone.

Wolf · Rehab Dropout...

Ahh! Facts! The system already works!

Trekka273 · sponsor

boss truck wrote:

Trekka273 wrote:

Have to agree with Dusteater, I don't like the idea of 1 or 2 seats in a Super 1650. I know if I was running and that rule came in there is no way in the world I would run a navigator as it makes a mssive difference in a car with such limited power. I know when we ran class 2, as it was then, and we did some testing at different times we would often run with one person in the car and it felt a lot different to drive.

Could there be a minimum weight if class 2 went to single seat as well.

Do you really want to start getting in to the area of weighing vehicles, etc prior to and after an event? And would you want to have the problem of making some changes to your vehicle and having to find a weigh bridge somewhere to check to ensure it hasn't put your car under the correct weight?

No other class has a minimum weight, in my opinion we don't need to start doing that now.

My personal opinion, leave the classes as they currently are.

Stingray 2212 · Rehab Dropout...

Some interesting views. So do we think that we should have the same class structure for both state & national events?

I agree with Scooter that 1650 is very strong at state level, the numbers prove it. The same numbers however say that 1650 is very weak at national level. I just think the speed difference between the top pro cars, & their numbers keep growing, compared to most of the 1650's, is too great. We now have issues of OHS & risk management to consider also.

BAJAs RULE · In rehab

FULLSCALE wrote:

I like things pretty much as they are but as class6 is being given the flick how about this.
Pro Buggy as is.
Pro lite as is
class 2 to 1800cc Motors available from nearly every manufacturer in current model cars
class 3 to as is
xtreme 2wd to engine driveline cofigeration as per body used
prodution 2wd as is
class6 baja's
production 4wd as is
class9 limited 2wd. engine possition as per extreme 2wd but to 3000cc on limite wheel base (ie trophy lite)
thought it may keep the thread going a bit longer

I am flattered, I know I am in a class of my own, but I don't think I need my own class. biggrin

Trekka273 · sponsor

Stingray 2212 wrote:

Some interesting views. So do we think that we should have the same class structure for both state & national events?

I agree with Scooter that 1650 is very strong at state level, the numbers prove it. The same numbers however say that 1650 is very weak at national level. I just think the speed difference between the top pro cars, & their numbers keep growing, compared to most of the 1650's, is too great. We now have issues of OHS & risk management to consider also.

In my opinion, it would be hard to make the classes different from State to National level. An example, if I ran a Super 1650 at State Level, but then I wanted to run a few Nationals where the rules had the maximum engine size at 2 litre (just an example). Basically, I no longer have a class to run in because I am at such a massive disadvantage to the bigger engined cars. Therefore, most likely I wouldn't run at any of the Nationals. This would lead to a reduction in competitor numbers at these events.

Whatever the class rules are, they need to be consistent between State and National level so that competitors don't need to make changes to their vehicles in order to run in either series.

Stingray 2212 · Rehab Dropout...

Trekka, sadly the 1650 & sportsman guys have already decided not to run nationals, the numbers prove this.

If you have a car worth 150k plus, logic suggests that you would have the budget to follow the national events. If your car is worth 20k, logic would again suggest that you would not have another 20k to go to all the national events. Let's be realistic, to compete in all the national events would require a budget beyond all but the guys at the top end.

Trekka273 · sponsor

Stingray 2212 wrote:

Trekka, sadly the 1650 & sportsman guys have already decided not to run nationals, the numbers prove this.

If you have a car worth 150k plus, logic suggests that you would have the budget to follow the national events. If your car is worth 20k, logic would again suggest that you would not have another 20k to go to all the national events. Let's be realistic, to compete in all the national events would require a budget beyond all but the guys at the top end.

That may be true, but is changing the class rules for National rounds going to make any more poeple run them? As an example, if they were to change it to 2 litre engines rather then 1650, would that make it any easier for people to go racing, would it make for more numbers racing? In my opinion I don't think it would, it would probably lead to fewer entrants because those people with 1650 cars wouldn't want to go and run against 2 litre cars.

No matter what the class rules are, there is still only a set number of poeple who can afford (be it with time and/or money) to run all of the National rounds, so even if we had a 2 litre or 2.5 litre or whatever class, would that make it any easier to do all of the National rounds?

Wolf · Rehab Dropout...

Alot of 1650 and sportsman guys may not run all rounds of the national championship but still race the national that comes to them! Even if there are only half a dozen of these guys at each event why not have a class for them?!?!!

The system works already! It aint broke! Trying to fix it for the sake of change isnt going to do anyone any favours and piss a heap of budget racers off who run their cars in state/club and once a year get to run a national. Or going to the other end of the spectrum and adding classes will only further complicate the structure.

100Kplus · Regular Poster

OK MY QUESTION IS IF YOU CHANGE THE CLASSES BETWEEN STATE AND NATIONAL LEVELS HOW DO CERTAIN EVENTS LIKE HYDEN, THE PINES AND GOONDIWINDI PRESENT CLASSES WHEN THEY RUN A STATE ROUND WITHIN THE NATIONAL ROUND? AND IN SAYING THAT TO MY KNOWLEDGE YOU CAN ENTER BOTH TO GET POINTS IN BOTH....

I KNOW THERE ARE LOTS OF STATE COMPETITORS THAT DON'T QUITE HAVE THE BUDGET TO DO ALL NATIONAL ROUNDS BUT LIKE TO DO A FEW WHEN THEY CAN... WHY NOT GIVE THEM THE OPPORTUNITY. BIGGER, BETTER BUDGET DOESN'T ALWAYS MEAN BETTER RACE CARS. I CAN'T SEE WHY STATE GUYS SHOULD FEEL THAT THEY AREN'T COMPETITIVE WITH A CAR THAT DOES ALL THE NATIONALS. IF YOU ASK ME THAT GIVES THEM MORE DETERMINATION TO TRY. STATE CARS NOWADAYS HAVE EVERY BIT THE PROFESSIONALISM AS THE NATIONAL GUYS. I'M SORRY BUT I DON'T SEE WHY WE CAN'T ALL COMPETE TOGETHER UNDER THE SAME RULES.

scooter · Forum Addict

leave it alone it aint broke

50 cents · Regular Poster

I think things should go back to how they where,It was simple and fair.

Stingray 2212 · Rehab Dropout...

Sorry, but it is broke, at a national level only. Let's look at Hyden this year. There were 10 1650's & one sportsman. Out of the 1650's all but one were from WA, & seven out of the ten were competing only in the shorter state component of the event. The one sportsman was from NSW & was a national competitor.

What I propose is that 1650 & sportsman are still recognised exactly the same as they are now, the only difference is that they will only be recognised as a class up to & including state level. Just like class 6 is now. As I said before all national events where possible will contain a shorter state component which will allow you to take part in all aspects of the event. The only difference will be you will pay less & you will do less laps.

The way things are, the only event where this would appear not to be possible is Finke because it is a point to point race with a stop over. It would also require the good folk of Mildura to welcome back us low level competitors as they have elected not to have a state component this year.

Just finally again from Hyden 30 out of the 89 competitors were state only. I think changing the system would not cause a reduction in numbers & could in fact boost entry numbers.

50 cents · Regular Poster

Did you do state or nat?

Stingray 2212 · Rehab Dropout...

If you are asking about Hyden, neither. What's that got to do with anything?