FUEL INSPECTION TAPS

simpson · Rehab Dropout...

FUEL INSPECTION TAPS

william · Rehab Dropout...

if they want to know what fuel people are running at national events make the cars fill at the race out of a cams provided tanks only.

i think the bigger problem is the engine cc's as it is very easy to increase the cc's in most engines without changing the the appearance of an enigne and once you turbo charge an engine power is unlimited. i have a daily subaru that has 220kws at the wheels which is 300kws at the fly wheel and this is at only 20psi i can fit a bigger turbo and double that for only $2000. so any one with a bit of cash and a turbo will always make silly amounts of power.

so how about aorc bring in an engine cc check with an approved list of engine builders that must check and seal an engine before every race. this way there is no way any team can spend $1millon dollars to ensure they win the $10 dollar plastic trophys. (i'm joking dont do it aorc its a silly idea really)

we are not in the states our sport does not have tv coverage and corprate sponsorship with huge prize moneys. so unless cams want to start supporting our sport they should get lost and let people race who do pump there own money into cars to go out and have a fun weekend out. there have been so many rules over the pass few years brought in for no real reason as there has been nothing to fix. like these new cars we are building to make money have a higher front so lets make all the cars that have raced for the last 30years change there frames to make them safe and protect them from us. also why do we in australia think that the ammercia cars are not safe and our rules for bar work are better. the yanks race every weekend (well close enough) they make our races look like kids fun weekends.

i think that racing in australia needs to sort out these thing or they will never go forward as it is very hard to get a start these days. and changing the rules every 12 month just makes it harder.

well this is a bit off topic but also very on topic.

william · Rehab Dropout...

back on topic.

look into aircraft parts suppilers as they will have a valve that is used to check fuel in tanks and on engines i'm sure they will have what you need and it will be safe and will also supply the unit to get the fuel out safely.

Webmaster · Rehab Dropout...

i thought they decided you didnt need a tap as long as you were able to retrieve a sample by some means from your tank.

LIAbillity · Rehab Dropout...

yeah that what some folks thought , but the wording of the rule say's it has to be after the tank ,

where would be the best location for the tap ?

i'll be fitting mine in the return system far away from the engine ,

-- Edited by LIAbillity on Wednesday 27th of April 2011 10:46:56 AM

Webmaster · Rehab Dropout...

hmmm, harder in buggies where the fuel tank is not always easy to get to.

simpson · Rehab Dropout...

I THINK THIS FITTING IS TO BE ON THE RETURN SIDE OF YOUR ENGINE AND IT MAY BE ONLY NATIONAL CARS THAT THEY WANT TO CHECK
I HAVE FOUND ONE ITS THE SAME AS THE ONES V8 SUPERCARS USE ITS A QUICK RELEASE COUPLER THEY USE IN THE ENGINE BAY BUT MY SUPLIER TOLD ME IT COULD BE DANGEROUS IN OUR TYPE OF CARS IF IT LEAKED IT COULD START A FIRE AND I WOULD HAVE FUEL RUNNING THROUGH MY CABIN I AM SURE THE PEOPLE THAT WANT THIS IN OUR CARS ARE INSURED
WOULD THIS HAVE WORKED - LET US KNOW LATE LAST YEAR WHEN MOST OF OUR CARS WERE IN PEICES. GIVE US A LIST OF COMPANYS THAT WOULD BE ABLE TO SUPPLY A TRIED AND TESTED METHOD OF FUEL TAP AND TELL US WHERE THEY WANTED IT PUT
NO BECAUSE THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN TOOOOOOO EASY

Webmaster · Rehab Dropout...

ok I have made a call and have some options

if you want to add a dry break fitting into the line then have a fitting you plug into that to allow some fuel out without any risk of unwanted leaks you are looking at about $220 based on dash 8 braided lines

alternatively a t-piece with a tap and required fittings including a cap to bloc the tap just in case it is bumped is around $120 based on dash 8.
This will be a bulkier option but more cost efficient.

it is recomended to have both these otions on the return line and close to the tank, not in engine bays or passenger compartments

visit www.mscn.com.au

or call 1800 242 910

Please ask for Shane as I have discussed this rule with him and he is aware of what you require

Good luck all

heyu · Rehab Dropout...

when did that one happen.

I mustn't have seen it,Oh! Bugger, I'm a scrutineer, maybe I'm not?

LIAbillity · Rehab Dropout...

i asked about the dry break system ( work uses them at work a lot )
was told that yes its ok to use but we would have to supply the coupling for the sample to be taken ,

jones off road · Rehab Dropout...

hip bars, bi-annual inspections, stupid ideas........................here we go again.

In all fairness, this rule has been mentioned in the past, just no warning of its implementation, and justification, and suitable ideas for the tap/drain.

What top level racer, or amatuer would risk running shonky fuel these days, there is simply no need?

To put a tap in a fuel line return is the dummest thing I have heard, lets put a tap in a pressure line, that might need the ignition switched-on, possible engine cranking, allowing fuel under pressure to be released to a live ignition/engine scenario????????
What about some/many newer engines that dont run fuel returns, and may be pumping over 50psi in the supply lines.
What about no open fuel containers/fuel tank caps etc when the engine is 'live'?
What about someone accidently bumping/releasing the tap when on display at scrutineering, or the dangers of kids in a house/shed environment (possibly playing with the tap when dads not looking.......boom!)
All of the ideas of supposedly making things safer, gone out the window in one go.

There is already a lot of negative talk about the Hyden scrutineering, and some of the rules enforced have left a bad taste. To criticise the rules is called 'disrepute' and attracts a fine.............what are the w....nkers trying to prove. I have spent my racing career trying to promote the sport (as do all of us), whats the point when 'desk jockeys' are doing their best to destroy it?

tumbleweed · Forum Junkie

Isn't there a big hole where the fuel goes in that could have a tube put into it with your finger over the top as you withdraw the appropriate amount of fuel? Even with my foam filling I reckon I could work a way around that.

LIAbillity · Rehab Dropout...

i heard they said something about cross contamanting the samples , but it would have been the simplest way ,

have they looked at using the sampling system as used by caterpiller ,
each kit comes with a hand operated vacume pump and pick up hose that can be inserted into a tank ,
it would stop an cross contamination , high pressure fuel leaks from spillage / fittings breaking ,

jones off road · Rehab Dropout...

tumbleweed wrote:
Isn't there a big hole where the fuel goes in that could have a tube put into it with your finger over the top as you withdraw the appropriate amount of fuel? Even with my foam filling I reckon I could work a way around that.

CAREFUL!!!!......this sounds like common sense, we ALL know CAMS is not interested in common sense!

tine · Rehab Dropout...

not sure they have fingers,you need a brain to operate them,,,sorry eddy

cobra 236 · Forum Junkie

Should we all just show up with a length of garden hose ? jokes... oh wait,cams might ask were the marijuana is?.....

simpson · Rehab Dropout...

I just got an update on this. National cars this year State and club cars start of next year . Thats unless some common sense gets used and they figure the risk of a fire could outway what they are trying to acheive
I don't know when they were going to let us all know ?

tumbleweed · Forum Junkie

Ahhhhh well it wasn't entirely my idea it took a full committee to think of it!!!!

Seriously though I like Jeremy's Idea of the scrutineers having a kit. Don't think it will happen though, if this rule is in then it will be hard to undo.

Blacky · In rehab

cobra 236 wrote:
Should we all just show up with a length of garden hose ? jokes... oh wait,cams might ask were the marijuana is?.....

I think CAMS knows where the marijuana is - they have got to be on something.

simpson · Rehab Dropout...

Stupid stupid stupid rule because if they are going to get serious about cheats they had better start testing engine capacity don't you think?
Instead of the usual badly thought out ones that are driving us all nuts.

And i hope for there sake that no ones car burns to the ground we already have had too many car fires................................................................................

-- Edited by simpson on Thursday 28th of April 2011 06:44:36 PM

goanna · Forum Junkie

....I run a mechanical fuel pump.... could make it interesting.

TOYOTAPOWR · In rehab

What fuel is actually not permitted ? Are they only looking for lead and octane booster?

simpson · Rehab Dropout...

I think thats the plan from the people with to much time on there hands.
They must just sit around thinking up stupid ideas. Because if there not worried about our safety one minute there trying to blow us up the next ..........................................

-- Edited by simpson on Thursday 28th of April 2011 07:59:43 PM

Blacky · In rehab

They do need to be accurate on what fuel people use because SO much is at stake - ie $10 trophy and the right to bag ya mates. If your car burns to the ground its your fault because your fire extinguisher was 2 years and 1 day old or whatever the other post says.

-- Edited by Blacky on Thursday 28th of April 2011 08:09:54 PM

LIAbillity · Rehab Dropout...

it was noted down in my log book and im not registed for the national ser ,
so would i still have to fit it if i only run the WA state rounds ?

i'll give the powers at be one thing ,its a good way to get the forume cranking , as it started to slow down for a bit there , lol

-- Edited by LIAbillity on Thursday 28th of April 2011 08:28:22 PM

william · Rehab Dropout...

there is a way around this it has been talked about before. remembering that cams is really only an insurance company so it would be possible to start a new race series as long as you are able to get another company to provide insurance. i'm sure it could be done. there is starting to be enough unhappy people in this country in the motorsports scene that it could get legs. cams have lost the plot and are bascily becoming the backers of the v8 supercars.

trophy truck · Newbie

I agree, just cose they tell us to do something dosnt mean we need to do it. If there are enough people stand up to CAMS something may get done, (prob not though). Why have fuel restrictons at all, we are not all running the same cars anyway. Different motors, different weights why not different fuel.

spaz · In rehab

Maybe some form of technical commitee made up of competitors and scrutineer types would be worth a try. Lots of other forms of motorsport have a technical commitee, why not us. We are all aware of rules that are way out of date and some rules brought in without due thought and research. Atleast that way competitors would have some input into decisions that affect them and competitors not on the commitee would have somewhere to go with their suggestions or thoughts. It would seem like common sense to include those competitors who wish to help guide our sport into a commitee like this. Trouble is common sense never seems to prevail. A lot of people seemed to like the idea of class representatives as well but that went nowhere as well.
On the fuel tap thing, surely fuel can be removed through the filler cap safely on 99% of all cars without the need for a tap which brings with it all the associated problems listed above, that is if they really do need to do a fuel test at all
Just my thoughts.

Webmaster · Rehab Dropout...

From the CAMS manual

Scheduel G Fuel

9. FUEL TESTING
Fuel samples may be drawn for testing from a competing automobile at any time during the period of time from the commencement of the event until the vehicle is released from parc fermé at the conclusion of the event, should one be organised.
It is the competitor’s responsibility to provide the means by which fuel samples may be taken from the automobile; the method being subject to the approval of the Chief Scrutineer.

Sampling requiring the disconnection of hoses containing fuel under pressure is not acceptable under any circumstances.
Whilst the fuel samples for testing are being taken, the competitor, or his nominated representative must be in immediate attendance to observe the process. Where the competitor or his nominated representative cannot be present within a reasonable time, the Chief Scrutineer must notify the Stewards of the Meeting, who shall appoint a proxy observer, being an official of the meeting, who shall act as the nominated
representative of the competitor.
For all National championships and series, and other events as specified in event regulations, the competitor must declare to the scrutineers, at the time of sampling, the brand and type of fuel that is in the automobile’s fuel tank. Any additive, including lubricants, must also be disclosed to the scrutineers. Where a permitted mixture of fuels is present, all component fuels must be disclosed.
Samples shall be tested according to procedures A or B below.

Test Procedure A: Testing at the Event
The Chief Scrutineer may choose to test fuel samples at the event. To this effect, one sample of fuel may be taken for testing under the conditions outlined above from each or any competing automobile. The competitor may, at his discretion, request a second sample be drawn at the same time. After being duly identified and sealed, this second sample may be retained by the competitor**.
Testing at the event shall be limited to:
• physical observation of the sample (colour, opacity)
• testing using whatever specialist equipment is available at the event (eg, electrical conductivity, density, gas chromatography etc)
Where a charge is raised as a result of such testing, the Chief Scrutineer or his representative shall give evidence at the subsequent Stewards Hearing or Inquiry, although they shall not be accorded the status of “Judge of Fact”. Notwithstanding this, the Stewards of the Meeting shall be obliged to take into consideration
any evidence thus presented.
** The competitor may use the retained sample in his defence provided that the seal of the sample retained by the competitor is broken in the presence of the Stewards of the Meeting. Where the scrutineers deem that no action is necessary, the container holding the competitors sample shall be returned by the competitor to the
scrutineers upon request.
Test Procedure B: Testing by a CAMS-approved Laboratory
CAMS shall maintain a list of approved laboratories for the testing of fuel.
For tests by an approved laboratory, two fuel samples shall be drawn and sealed into identified containers.
The seal on each container shall be affixed in such a way as to ensure the rupture of the seal upon the opening of the container. Each seal shall bear identification of the event, the name and signature of the scrutineer taking the sample and the name and signature of the competitor. The samples (Samples A and B) shall then be
sent to CAMS, which shall send Sample A to a CAMS-approved laboratory. The determination of fuel type and composition shall be by comparison against a reference library of results for known fuel types determined by the method ASTM D-3710-95 (or equivalent).
Where the approved laboratory notifies CAMS that sample A has been found to be not in conformity with the prescriptions contained herein, CAMS shall lodge sealed fuel sample B with the same approved laboratory.
Where the results of the second test sample B corroborate the initial determination of Sample A, the fuel shall be deemed to be not in conformity with the prescriptions of the present Schedule. This finding shall be binding on any Stewards’ Hearing, Appeal Tribunal or any subsequent AMSAC Hearing. Where a discrepancy exists
between the results of samples A and B, no action shall be taken against the competitor.
Note: There are special conditions associated with the transport and handling of flammable liquids. Contact
CAMS to ascertain an appropriate method of transporting the fuel.

So as I read it there is no recommended method it is entirely up to the Chief scruitineer, so depending on who that is the sample from the fuel filler with garden hose COULD be acceptable.

Our voices are not going unheard. I am talking with a scrutineer who is working on trying to get a SAFE method approved so all the scruitineers will be on the same page making their life and the competitors easier when it comes to fuel testing.

He will be discussing this at the next State panel meeting.

Kick my dog · In rehab

Further to the debate, below is the extract from the AORCom minutes from November referring to fuel sampling. No further minutes were recorded on this topic in February.

How are competitors to know about upcoming changes if this is the communication process?

5.12 Fuel Sampling Devices

Mr Williams has raised the issue of fuel sampling devices and that every competitor is required to be able to provide a fuel sample if requested by the Technical Commissioner.

Fuel testing regulations should be located in the Off Road General Requirements as opposed to the Sporting Regulations and a recommendation for this changing location will be forthcoming.

Explanatory Note: Any means of providing a fuel sample is acceptable as long as it is safe. A fuel tap is not necessarily required. The Technical Commissioners responsibility does not include helping competitors to provide the sample or provide tools for the task. This sample is solely of the competitor to provide.

Schedule G, Article 9 specifies Fuel testing procedure currently required in Off Road vehicles.

ACTION: Mr Murray and Mr Williams will draft up wording to cover this requirement further in the Off Road General requirements for approval by AORCom.