Prolite Turbo???

Pedroski · Forum Junkie

Prolite Turbo???

Danny Brown · Forum Junkie

If it has a turbo it is pro class car, i was also confused by a few turbo pro lites popping up and checked out the rules the other day.

Prolite Buggy - Buggies with engines up to 3500cc, naturally aspirated

Stingray 2212 · Rehab Dropout...

It should include turbos, I don't get the N/A thing at all, people are spending huge dollars on engines. Standard 1.7 multiplication factor should apply. There is simply no way a 2.0 litre turbo can compete in pro class these days. When the rules were formulated 4cyl turbos ruled, that has all changed now. Time for a rethink.

Trekka273 · sponsor

Stingray 2212 wrote:
It should include turbos, I don't get the N/A thing at all, people are spending huge dollars on engines. Standard 1.7 multiplication factor should apply. There is simply no way a 2.0 litre turbo can compete in pro class these days. When the rules were formulated 4cyl turbos ruled, that has all changed now. Time for a rethink.

It is true that a 2 litre turbo will struggle in Pro Class now, however if they were to be allowed in Pro Lite there is a fair chance that the good 2 litre turbo motors will dominate. And then the race will be on to spend more money building hot 2 litre turbo engines to be competitive. I think Pro Lite class is working well as it is and should be left alone.

Stingray 2212 · Rehab Dropout...

How much do you think they are spending on engines now? It is far from a "cheap" class. Why not allow the cars that have become uncompetitive in pro class into it? It should always be about getting cars out of sheds & back racing again. Be honest, a 2litre turbo in pro class now is a mile behind. The cars that are for sale have been there for a long time, who would spend 40 odd grand on a car that currently really doesn't have a class where it can be remotely competitive.

TOYOTAPOWR · In rehab

Alternatively you could ban turbos from all classes. Might even things up at the pointy end.

Pedroski · Forum Junkie

Didn't intend to start the rethink the classes question just looking to sell my 2litre beam buggy and was a bit confused.
I do believe a rethink of engine size and types is justified every now and then but it would take an awful lot of hands up to change the prolite class.

ARB TIPPING CHAMPION 2013

So Stingray are you trying to say that all the current prolites should change their motors to turbo ones beacause we can afford it! Because that is what we would have to do to be competitive if you allow turbos in prolite and it won't be because of the pro cars dropping down it'll be because the people with money will just spend more and build high HP motors, So just leave Prolite alone because it works great the way it is! If your not competitive in Pro class then you have the ability to drop down a class or two just buy changing your motor which will be easier on your gearbox. Once again LEAVE PROLITE ALONE!!!

TOYOTAPOWR · In rehab

Agree
Prolite is awesome just the way it is.

960Mike · Powerhouse Poster

Another thing to throw in the ring here is a place for turbo diesel buggies in pro lite... With the correction factors, it seems more likely that pro lite is the place for them as they are becoming more common in road cars and it's only a matter of time before we see one out racing!

Regards,

Michael

-- Edited by 960Mike on Friday 8th of November 2013 10:00:02 AM

Stingray 2212 · Rehab Dropout...

Turbo engines are allowed in every other class yet they only dominate pro class. I think the paranoia about them being in pro lite is ill founded. The whole reason the class came about was to give cars that were no longer competitive in pro class a new home. A clever sport is one that constantly evolves, keeping people interested is a part of that.

FULLSCALE · Forum Addict

I think it's time for a rethink on the turbo situation as a whole. we currently have a big difference in pro class be tween turbo and na horsepower. A change to the 1.7 factor will put some motors out of competitiveness and force a major overhall of cars, as would a cc change. So what about a restrictor plate for all turbo cars so they carbring Pro buggies back to the field and turbos to run in prolite. it's not a hp cap as such, just a reduction, as a turbo size or boost limit would be.

ARB TIPPING CHAMPION 2013

Instead of trying to change the rules of prolite to make yourself competitive just sell your engine, stop spending time on the internet whinging, spend some time in the shed and change motors to a class that you can be competitive in! The current prolites running have already done this and are reasonably even in speed (except for a few). My car has a VQ35 in it with a set of $1200 cams which makes ok Hp and is still reasonably competitive so you don't need to spend a fortune.

Or would you be happier to change the rules every time your not competitive and stuff the rest of us!

Also IMO Danny Brown dominated extreme 2wd at the ARB series with a twin turbo truck and when Chapman and Hunter sort their cars out they will probably dominate Extreme 4wd too

-- Edited by 2204 on Friday 8th of November 2013 06:00:20 PM

ARB TIPPING CHAMPION 2013

So if you are in class 2 why are you so worried about changing prolite? Imo an f1 engine is to highly strung to last in off road conditions but I could be wrong. Here is a question for you put Owen, Swaffield, McClelland, Mowles, James, Erceg, Fehlhaber, the 2 Cowie brothers, Weir, Foster, Marshall, Simpson and any I have forgot on a start grid and picking a winner would be hard, Les won the most races in prolite last year in an older style jimco and I could go on but Prolite seems to work great the way it is to me and that is why I choose to race in this class, my car is cheap compared to theirs but I still think I can be competitive, also I have a lot of fun just driving and working on it. So how is that having my head buried in the sand when Imo they have the formula right in prolite because the class seems to be getting bigger every day with more cars being built and the competition closer than ever.

-- Edited by 2204 on Friday 8th of November 2013 10:01:09 PM

simpson · Rehab Dropout...

Why why why leave the f....g class alone, its not broken, if your not competitive in your car sell it a buy one that is , my VQ is as Nissan built it apart from 5 mil bigger throttle bodies and it's ok, if your not having fun then buy a horse.

Pedroski · Forum Junkie

Totally disagree Mr Simpson my wife has horses and they suck.

revin · Forum Addict

I'm with you 110% Simpson and 2204. My VQ has minimum work and puts out the horse power I need to be competitive and have fun. If you're not happy buy something that makes you happy within the class limits you want to run or change sports. Leave the class alone.

simpson · Rehab Dropout...

That's my whole point, we have a great sport, hobby call it what you will, if you compete at a level you can afford then that's what you can afford,

don't try and make it something it's not, in any type of sport money talks,

I stay in pro-lite because I could afford to run at that level, my last car was a beam car with a 2 litre turbo I kept blowing Renaults up so I put in a 6 cyl Subaru n/a in it, lucky for me pro-lite came about, and pro-lite cars are competitive in all aspects of off-road, no need to complicate things,

Stingray 2212 · Rehab Dropout...

So lets not discuss anything & we will all be happy with our heads buried in the sand. Newsflash, there are already people spending near on 200 grand on pro lite cars. What's to stop anyone putting a 3.5 litre F1 engine in a pro lite? Answer, nothing. Yes Danny dominated the ARB series, do you really think if Gallard & Geddes were running the ARB series Danny would have still dominated? I don't. I'm sorry, I simply don't get the paranoia. I thought we were all about making the sport as attractive for as many competitors as we can. Just for the record my car is a class 2 with a turbo & a supercharger & it doesn't even come close to dominating the class.

Stingray 2212 · Rehab Dropout...

I'm not "worried" about changing it at all, I'm simply putting a view forward of a way to make the class even bigger & stronger which would be good for the sport. I will give an example of a recent race in Victoria. The first three cars outright were Justin Watt (new pro lite) Brad Chasemore (former Simpson A arm Jimco single seater, sequential fortin & stroked (2.2) SR20 turbo), Andrew McClelland (new pro lite). If you look at the times it was close all day, the turbo car did not leave them all for dead, it was good competitive racing. You say just change the engine if a car is uncompetitive in pro class but you well know it's far from that simple. You would also need to alter gear ratios & change the suspension. I would argue that if all those pro lite cars you mentioned were at one race & half of then were 2.0 litre turbos & the other half were 3.5 N/A you still couldn't pick a winner. I think including up to 2.0 litre turbo engines is a logical step forward, it will get cars out of sheds & back onto the track without their owners having to spend a fortune on radical alterations. Surely having more people involved has to be good for the sport. Doesn't it?

-- Edited by Stingray 2212 on Saturday 9th of November 2013 07:09:12 AM

ARB TIPPING CHAMPION 2013

So you are saying 4 cylinder turbo cars aren't competitive in pro class anymore but in your example a 2.2l turbo car won pro class and would have came second in prolite so wouldn't he be better off in pro class where he won the class confuse

How about instead of wanting to change the classes all the time (when we have spent a lot of money to conform to our class) and we look at the reason why cars are in sheds and maybe its another reason like I know a lot of guys that have got out of the sport just because they simply can afford it anymore. How about we look at why it costs nearly $1000 to enter a national round and why at Coffs you could do all laps for cheaper when not registered for points? Imo that is why the ARB series is so good, you get to do national style tracks for around state event prices.

-- Edited by 2204 on Saturday 9th of November 2013 12:10:42 PM

Stingray 2212 · Rehab Dropout...

The example event was a Mallee shield race, it was just to show that a very good 2 litre turbo car still wont beat a good new pro lite. Clearly you don't believe more people competing in pro lite is good for the sport so we will leave it at that.

My view is that the competitors made a very clear statement with their support of the ARB series. I think it will grow even more next year & I think fields of only 30 cars at nationals will become more common. Who knows why national events are so expensive, it's very clear that the ARB event organisers see reasonable entry fees as a priority which is why their events got such good numbers. I think the slide towards the ARB series will continue because national entry fees won't come down.

ARB TIPPING CHAMPION 2013

I would love more cars in prolite with 3.5lt engines and there are lots of prolites getting built and being brought out every year and the competition is great, but the thing is you are going off one state, here in NSW there is some very fast 2lt turbos that the current prolites at state level don't stand a chance of beating unless they have problems and then there are the motorbike engined cars like phils in WA that are super fast now and add a turbo and they will dominate IMO. So I am just thinking that if we allow turbos in prolite we open a can of worms that could damage the class, so I will stick to my opinion that it should be left the way it is because it is a great class that is going from strength to strength with numbers continuing to grow every event.

revin · Forum Addict

I agree with you Kelvin, in regards to turbos and bike engines. But in regards to the entry fees for ARB series, do you really think that CAMS are not going to increase them due their success? At the moment they are at state level prices, but because of the amount of entries they received compared to entry levels at nationals, you think they're not going to see dollar signs...

simpson · Rehab Dropout...

Sorry stingray look to the future not the past 3.5 pro-life's are easy on the driveline,fast and growing in popularity, are a great class and we don't need turbos,what's next let's ban A arm cars cause the beam cars can't keep up,

if someone wants to spend money in building 2 lt turbo then so be it, as for ARB it's my understanding CAMS gave them a 1 st year deal on entry fees that will be bought into line with National entry's in 2014,

National entry's were down a lot of people sent AORC a message, I hope they are listening and us the competitors are the winners.

Pedroski · Forum Junkie

The entry fees have been increased by CAMS in the ARB series to National levels. ARB will be keeping the fees the same as this year by paying the difference as sponsorship.
Seems like a bloody nice thing to do by someone passionate about the sport and financially capable of doing it. Definitely not talking about CAMS.
I guess there will be more facts coming about the ARB series by those who manage it.

Stingray 2212 · Rehab Dropout...

On what grounds can CAMS increase entry fees, these events are state rounds. Never has the ARB "Series" claimed to be a national championship. If this is true then CAMS have totally lost the plot & have proven that they don't give a toss about what competitors want & are nothing short of simple money grabbers. Again if true, I would hope the ARB series organisers will look at securing insurance outside CAMS.

I am looking to the future Simpson, I could argue that your paranoia about turbos was living in the past. I'm not calling to ban anything, that's the point. You blokes are the ones that want bans in place. I am calling for inclusion, not bans.

cobra 236 · Forum Junkie

The Success of Prolite class now reflects the enthusiasm that the competitors in that class have and the cost friendly nature the class can be . 2ltr Prolite engines can be competitive , look at Michael spokes, even some super 1650's here nsw often push some faster cars along . Leave the class as is ! As for me I recently sold my pro buggy that only had a e15 et engine and kombi box , I didn't care that I no chance of winning the class I just enjoyed racing against other vehicles no matter the class they were in.

simpson · Rehab Dropout...

Call me what you will, it won't happen if we in the class have a say, we couldn't have enough classes to please everyone and to think we could would be a joke, as for pro-lite it has produced some great racing the last few years with great results against the much larger H/P cars. That's what pisses me off when someone keeps moving the goal posts.

I would be happier to see a gearbox distinction, seeing Vw, Porsche & Renault as a class that older cars could compete in with or without turbos.

How about single seaters in class two just to start another debate,

And if ARB are doing that then what a great thing for off-road, as I said we are the winners , CAMS need to have a good look at what's going on around them !

Stingray 2212 · Rehab Dropout...

I think class 2 single seaters is a great idea. I don't care if they are motorbike engined or turbo charged or supercharged or whatever. There is always going to be someone that has more money, is a better driver, is a bit smarter. I say if it gets cars back onto the track or attracts a new competitor then it's a good move forward.

I don't believe I called you anything Simpson. Goalposts move all the time, that's the nature of motorsport. How many pro lites had albins boxes & torque converters when the class started but nobody seems to have a problem with that.