I don't know about anyone else, but i'd like to see something like that at the club days for the kids, i think it would get more people into the sport and give the kids some fun, maybe something like an under twelve's (limited to 100cc) and over twelve's (up to 250cc), just a thought. It should make them better drivers both on and off the road and give them a start in the sport like the mini dragsters, mini bikes and go carts do for their sports 

The only problem would be insurance's and the cost involved with getting it up and running

I would like to know what the people running the SORRA club think about giving it a try

2204 I think you may have missed the point while a kids scaled class would be good what I'm suggesting are buggies powered by upto 1300cc bike engines. Buggies capable of well over 100km/h. Check out the site www.edge.au.com and you will see what i mean.

2204 wrote:

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BSG, I've seen the edge site and they do look like fun, for the kids ( til there old enough to get in the real thing) and i think there a good idea at club level only. I think they would boost numbers up from the 10-15 people they get at most club days at colo, but i wouldn't like to see them trying to compete against real buggies, but i surpose the club would have to work that out and whether they would or could get something started

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2204 I'm new to this forum so while I don't want to start a slanging match but I'd have to disagree with you about "for the kids". lets take the Edge piranha for example it weighs in at around 375kg has 14 inchs of wheel travel and by the right person( if you've got the tools) could be built for under 10K. I don't know of many "real" buggies that could be built that light or that cheap. Still not convinced. Fit it with a Suzuki 1300cc Hayabusa engine at 179bhp at the rear tyre (stock) and you've then got a buggy with around 450hp/ton, thats a pretty good power to weight ratio you'd have to agree.
I wasnt suggesting that the class be accepted nationally by the AROC but at a club level to Act as an entry point for those wishing to get involved with off-road racing with out having to spent big dollars. think of it as a stepping stone, try the scaled version, get hooked, then build a bigger one.
Alright a real one.
I don't think CAMS would allow kids younger than twelve to race but as TORC in VIC's rules opperate as a speed event and not off-road then 12 is the youngest that could race
Insurance would not be a problem as any event held would have to be CAMS approved. And they would handle the Insurance and not SORRA.
It's just an Idea.

COMMENTS, QUESTIONS, DEATH THREATS?

BSG, I didn't mean ones over 250cc for the kids! As for your comment about "that light and that cheap" there's a reason why our buggies are the weight they are, its called strengh and protection, i'd hate to see what would happen to one of your "light buggies"  if it hit a tree at over 100 km/h, which colo has a few of, as for cheap thats what class six is for, an entry level.

Now when you said jnr dragster, i've seen them and they are driven by kids to get them into drag racing and i agree with doing something like that with our sport, to get them interested and teach them the skills to make them better drivers in the future both on and off the road

Boss Truck you said "we need bums on seats" and "we just need to show people the alternatives." isn't a class of bike powered buggies an alternative?
People are building these buggies with nowhere to race, Imagine how many more would be built if racing was available. It's upto a club like SORRA to recognize the potential of these buggies and the growth it could bring to the sport. As to
"We need new blood in our sport but at what cost. Yes in the states you can run anything in the Baja 500 & 1000 but l myself would hate to run into a golf cart at 100 kmh in the dust."
wasn't class 9 buggy, 927, in the last Finnke powered by a bike engine? So as I understand your P.S a bike powered buggy competed in the Finnke but your class 6 can't?
I agree to be hit by a full sized buggy or truggy while in a light weight buggy would be bad I'm not suggesting the two would be on the track at the same time I'm suggesting a completely seperated race league for bike powered buggies.
2204 to answer your statement
"there's a reason why our buggies are the weight they are, its called strengh and protection"
when a 2 ton buggy hits a tree at 100km/h it carries alot of momentum and inertia
when a 500kg buggy hits the same tree at the same speed it only has to overcome a fraction of the momentum and inertia of the heavy buggy so it will sustain alot less damage
to give you an example; take a ping pong ball in one hand and a golf ball in the other. Now throw them both at the same speed at a glass window.
Which will bounce of and which will break the glass?
the same is true with the two different buggies while I'm not saying that the light buggy will bounce of the tree only that it will sustain damage in proportion to it's mass.

COMMENTS, QUESTIONS, DEATH THREATS.

Boss Truck some days I don't know wether I'am commited or should be commited lol.
I'm not trying to build to what the Edge say. Your right I need to build to the rules but as I said In an earlier post in VIC there is a club called TORC they wrote their own rules so as to be able to race mini buggies, the rules where presented to CAMS and accepted. TORC is a CAMS affiliated club and their rules are backed by CAMS. These are the rules I want to build to. All myself and alot of other mini buggy builders want is a club outside VIC to stand up and say "lets give it a go"
Look at the evolution of off-road racing. It started out that all buggies used VW running gear. Then people started to use other motors with the VW transaxle and next came A arm front ends bigger shocks and more travel. I'm sure the buggy purests looked down on the first truggy, not quite a buggy and not quite a truck. Every day a new design or idea is considered.
All people need to do is think outside the square.

COMMENTS, QUESTIONS, DEATH THREATS.

Love the idea of getting kids involved as drivers
Love the idea of running a motorcycle engine in a buggy too
Class 3 and class 9 are the perfect place for you to start your quest BSG
Yes, Off-road cars have come a long way in recent years from humble VW powered cars right through to mighty V8 powered truggys.....(Proof that off roaders do think out side the square) but all these changes were made to fit the rules and classes of the day.
As the cars have changed, so to the rules change, mainly these days in the interest of safety.
I'm sure you could build a 1300cc motorcycle powered car with 15" of wheel travel
and weigh under 400kgs that will travel at the same speed as any class 1 car
But unfortunately as 2204 pointed out there are alot of trees out there, and one day
you will hit one........ping pong balls aside, I think I would rather be in a chassis that is built to the regs in the CAMS manual than a chassis that is built from 1.2mm wall exhuat pipe!!
There is a big difference between running around in the back yard and racing

However, if we were just trying to find a place to race cars, like the edge buggys
as an entry level to off road racing, at stand alone events or club days
Then I'm all for it

Wolf a correction to my earlier post, I was led to believe that TORC run as a speed event and as such need a 2S or 2SJ licence. After getting in touch with Martin at TORC he has corrected this, they use the same CAMS level 3 off-road licence so yes at club level the age would be 14.
Martin has offered to send me a copy of the rules that they race under and I will be post more info as I get it.
Azteck I agree there is no way you would get me in a buggy build with exhaust pipe.
And don't get me started on those sh#@%#$t chinese made cheap buggies you see sold next to pocket bikes on ebay.
Take a look at the CAMS manual for off-road there are two types of acceptable tube 38.1x2.5 CDS and 42.4x2.6 AS1163 for the construction of a chassis.
For those that arn't up on there tubes, AS1163 is a 350 MPa pipe, its also called 32NB pipe. The Edge buggies use 40x40 SHS for most of there frame and 25NB pipe for roll bars, thats (33.7x3.2mm) a far cry from 1.2mm exhaust pipe and only 4.3mm smaller than the CDS you use. The major difference is the price, the last time I priced CDS I was told around $18 p/m you can buy a 6.5m length of 25NB for around $40
Both types have the same 350MPa but a lighter buggy can get away with a small ID tube for the frame and still be safe.
Yes tree's are still a concern but as wolf said you've got a track why not use it?

COMMENTS, QUESTIONS, DEATH THREATS

 

 bsg

     offroading doesnt need another class ,there is plenty of room to built any sort of buggy u want in the classes they are all ready there as u pointed out there is a class nine with a bike motor.as to the golf ball/ ping pong debate ,if you took both balls and put them on the ground and hit them with a hammer the golf ball would still look like a golf ball, the ping pong ball would look pretty second hand.     thats just my  2cents

Dusteater everyone has an opinion and that is why we contribute to this forum. If finding sponser dollars is a crime for class 6 then we should have a few more criminals around the place finding money to encourage people in other classes. You dont like class 6 then you must be a class 1 boy from way back because stuff everyone else there should only be 10 quick class 1 cars at a national and bugger all the rest of the cars as they get in the way. 6 is a cheap way to go racing and a good way to fill the empty trophy cabinet If you spend $20,000.00 on a class 6 it is still better than $50,000.00 minimum to compete at a high level in class 2 or 3 and $100,000.00 in class 1.My car is in the $15-20,000.00 mark and is a road block to most cars and it is a class 2 but fit a restrictor to the motor and it is still the same roadblock but it will run close to the front  of said class. Why should it only be 3,2,1 &9 bring it back to a family sport with a lower dollar value on at least one class and let us all be dusteaters too.

OK - Im pulling this thread back on track.  The class debates have been thrashed in other threads.  This debate is for pros and cons of running mini-buggies at colo.

Im going to see 1887's 2c, dusts 23c raise and raise another 25.

Firstly, Im an advocate.  I think the idea is a good one.

Fatman - its not a class debate, its about a completely different type of car running along side our own, much like the 6cyl class.  If there are mini-buggies out there why not give them somewhere to run?  From a marketing point of view I think it could be great for offroad and SORRA.  We'de have guys with mini-buggies coming out to have a crack against their mates and they'd see the Spizzo's, Iron's and Lia's on a massive adrenal rush. 

I think mini-buggies are a better idea than 6cyls or pocket rockets, or the offroad go-kart idea Ive heard kicking around. 

I can see it as a good marketing tool that could bring in more people to see our cars run and raise interest in offroad getting more cars on the track.  I can see it as a tool to help our stretched volunteers who organise, direct and scruitneer events.  There's no such thing as a free lunch and if we get some guys who are happy to help share the load in return for having somewhere to race, why not?  Event management is a massive task and help is always appreciated, not to mention assistance on working bees etc.

Re the safety of the vehicles - we all risk our arses out there as it is, and we've all have big hits.  If its as BSG said and they're not the crappy chinese made heaps of ****, but buggies with decent roll (and tree) protection, ratified by CAMS and with a log book, why not?  Some say you've gotta be psychotic to race offroad anyway...

BSG, could you bring one to the next club round so we can poke and prod at one?

The giddy-giddy would be a great track for mini-buggies, or perhaps the bottom loop with a chicken run around the main jump?  Maybe even use the bottom loop and part of the old stadium section?  That'd be fun!

There are concerns that need to be raised before such a venture could go ahead, including:
Rule ratification by CAMS and log books issued, not just on roll cages, but also petrol tanks and firewalls, seat belts, extinguishers, engine cut offs etc - the sort of issues that we're all used to which would be different from our own cars.
Scruitneering.
Licensing.
Classes (whether or not they should be classed, and if so, what divisions)
There are bound to be many, many others.

If the mini-buggy guys are prepared to do the leg work (which they've obviously started already) why not take the opportunity?

Ok, Ive done what I see as pros from a club members perspective, I dont think weve got anything to lose and and possibly, alot to gain.  Anyone out there want to play devils advocate?

-- Edited by Wolf at 11:01, 2006-02-01

1887 wrote:

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  if we are talking about growing the sport we are better off having the extra people in the classes that we have...

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But these guys already have buggies, just no-where to race them, so they're already lost to offroad racing cause they've already spent the disposable income that they may have spent on an offroad buggy on a mini-buggy.

The growth possibilities in having them run at colo along side is as a feeder division to bigger cars, more prestige, bigger events.

At the moment they're basically being used as bashers only.  If they get a number together to actually race together you've just raised the possibility of them getting bitten by the offroad bug a hundred fold.

Its also a way of capturing a portion of the youth market that would normally go to bikes or quads - those ones might just end out in offroad instead.

If these cars already have reg & logbooks and stuff and are CAMS sanctioned in Victoria, there is no reason why the NSW owners of this type of vehicle can't  do the same.CAMS is Australia wide and if provision is made for these vehicles to run under CAMS in Victoria it shouldn't be too much of a problem for them to be a recognized class in any state of Australia.

And, if this is the case  I'm sure our Club ,SORRA, would happily welcome them into  our sport .I'm sure that a seperate or shortened track could be organized for these machines as has been done for the 6 cylinder class.We'd even be happy to accomadate radio control model offroad vehicles but thats another thought(maybe if we build a track for the models they could...)OH! OH!

There was some guys a few years ago that were going to Victoria with thier buggies to race them .This might be of some benifit to them if thier still playing.

 

    because this class or should i say form of bikebuggies will only be stand alone or club day racing you are not adding numbers that will grow offroading they cant go to state or nationals so we dont get better car counts. i dont see it as a feeder class sorry form because they have spent there disposable income biulding there bikebuggies so i dont see them rushing out to buy real buggies. now if it was for jnr then maybe it could work as a feeder class so by a certin age they have to move up, just like speedways( jnr sedans) or drag racing (jnr dragsters) how that has a lot more merit