Tyre size.

Stingray 2212 · Rehab Dropout...

Tyre size.

Lamby · In rehab

I think this needs some serious discussion, all the points mentioned above are very valid.

heyu · Patron, 2013 AORC CHAMPION TIPSTER

I concur. Very valid points.

Now all we need do is spread the word, as far and wide as possible to get people involved.

Come on guys, give your input.

Danny Brown · Forum Junkie

From what i have heard cams are already looking into this, it would be fair to give teams some time to use up their stock and implement change

Dags777 · Forum Addict

I agree whole heartedly

Stingray 2212 · Rehab Dropout...

Danny, my understanding is that CAMS are looking at capping the size at 37". I think that's too big & wouldn't "restrict" the cars at all. It would simply prevent them from going bigger.

-- Edited by Stingray 2212 on Friday 26th of June 2015 10:39:42 AM

Kick my dog · In rehab

I may be wrong here but in my opinion the larger tyres are actually easier on the environment where as the smaller ones dig into the ground.

I also feel horsepower does much more damage than tyre size...

davec57 · Regular Poster

Danny Brown wrote:
From what i have heard cams are already looking into this, it would be fair to give teams some time to use up their stock and implement change

Totally agree this needs to be review, But people need time to adjust to rule changes. not just make a change over night. As good old CAMS has in the past...that ends up increasing cost even more for the people that the change effects, there for making the changes pointless. if the change is to help with Cost.

branden2212 · Regular Poster

At Sea Lake this year the track was noticeably rougher than the year before. My car has very limited suspension travel and capping the tyre size at 35" would be a great move to ensure I can get around the track. I agree that the power of the big cars is destroying the tracks, that is why a capped tyre size of 35" would make alot of sense. If the tyres are capped at 35" drivers then have to consider things such as tyre wear with a big power engine. If they are frying 35's then they need to make changes to adjust, perhaps having to limit their engine power. It may even bring the field closer in some cases, a sorted out prolite against a bigger power pro buggy that has to consider tyre wear whilst driving isnt a bad thing for the sport. The other point is it's difficult to police engine power or to limit it. Anyone can look at a sidewall of a tyre and see that they are 35", which does limit power if people can't put all the power through them without destroying them. The final point is Sea Lake had a track re-enstatement fee this year for the first time, Meaning it's now an issue. It's time to put a limit on tyres at 35". For everybodys best interests and for the long term interests of the sport.

scooter · Forum Addict

last thing we need !!!!!!! more rules .

SAracer · In rehab

Im not a fan of bringing in a maximum tyre size. Im in agreeance with Adam in saying that the horsepower is what is doing it, not the tyres.
Also, how are we going to tell the people that are advancing in the sport with new Trophy Trucks that they have to bring them back to 35" tyres when they are all set for minimum 35" tyres. They would have to change the whole suspension setup on their cars.

Stingray 2212 · Rehab Dropout...

I don't believe you can easily restrict horsepower by restricting the engine. It's way too complicated & so open to people "bending" the rules if that's their desire. A restricted tyre size is a simple way of achieving it. You just cant put the same power through a 35" tyre as a 37" or 39" & expect it to last, it's simple logic. It's also simple logic that a 40" tyre is going to dig a bigger hole than a 35" tyre.

35" used to be the norm for the big cars, so why did it change? Simply because they wanted to get increased horsepower to the ground & the 35's no longer did the job without degrading.

As for the people that are "advancing the sport" with big trucks & bigger tyres, sometimes rules have to be put in place for the overall good. An advance in technology may be a backwards step in other areas such as environmental damage. I'm no greenie but there are plenty of them out there just itching to find a way to stop us doing what we enjoy. Being pro active about our environmental footprint is a way that we can prove we want to keep the damage we do to a minimum.

The environment movement is real & is an issue, look at all the crap people are going through with noise. Finding ways to prove we are a responsible group that care about the environment we play in is a positive step forward I believe.

Ivan Robertson · Newbie

I don't believe tyre size is the problem it is easy blame about 3% of the cars out there that run 37"+ tyres for all the damage the fact is our cars have better suspension then ever before we blast through bumps like there not there coming into hard corners is possibly the roughest part of any track under hard brakes suspension doing its thing generally this is where the smaller cars loose there speed and struggle. limiting tyre size will not help as a land holder of the first round of the AORC I have no problem with large tyres our sport has evolved into something that now is awesome to watch and now brings good sponsors. If we limited suspension travel to 8 inches that would slow everyone down that would fix the problem,But wreck our sport. I for one will not go back to 35 inch tyres The truck will be parked. I really don't think 3 or 4 trucks (that is what this is aimed at)with big tyres do all the damage we just get through it better because we aren't digging big holes.

Stingray 2212 · Rehab Dropout...

It's not aimed at 3 or 4 trucks at all. It's aimed at any truck or buggy running larger than 35" tyres.

Tell me, why would you refuse to compete if you had to use 35" tyres?

Ivan Robertson · Newbie

generally quite simple with 35 inch tyres two much wheel slip spinning bogging down I have not increased my hp I now have better traction (less spinning less ground disturbance) for a reference at gear for 200 km we could only achieve about 160-180km 20-40 km wheel slip now we have approx 10-15 km wheel slip (this takes in account of large tyre size also). I didn't put 37 inch tyres on for bigger roosts . How many buggy's run 37 inch ? most tyres are 12-13.5 inch wide we are mostly increasing the length of our footprint the reduce wheel slip our capacity's are capped hp how much you spend average hp V8 450-600 that will spin a big wheel but it will spin a small wheel a lot easier.

Stingray 2212 · Rehab Dropout...

So if everyone was restricted to 35's nobody would have an advantage. As I said at the start & you have confirmed, you can only put a certain amount of usable horsepower through a 35" tyre.

Therefore it is reasonable to assume that if everyone one used a maximum of 35" tyres, cars would require less horsepower. They could keep it the same but it would be no advantage & the tyres would wear quicker. There would certainly be no advantage in increasing power but there may be an advantage in decreasing it.

There is nothing stopping you or anyone else from increasing your horsepower so you are spinning 37's like you were spinning 35's, that's the point of capping them at 35. It eliminates the need to constantly increase horsepower & provides an advantage to actually reduce it.

Ivan Robertson · Newbie

The faster you can spin them the faster you will go its not bitumen (controlling it maybe a different story) no one will go less hp everybody body wants to get as much hp as there pocket will allow a 450hp LS engine is easy 580 hp + gets expensive. We need to look after the land we race on, we should be charged a track reinstatement fee and a lot more than we pay now.The AORC held at my place this year went very well but a lot of competitors don't see the real cost. Members of our local club put a huge amount of work in leading up to the race but when it was over they didn't stop, they were on tractors for a week after repairing my farm tracks and fences so that I didn't wreck my work cars getting around the farm. The amount of fuel and labor, etc and time of work the club members put in is unreal. The only problem I have with the tracks left on my land is it got a bit wide in spots, which we will fix that next time. The rest of the track came out fine thanks to the club.It was great to see some older locals at the event and the thing that impressed them is that it wasn't boring any more with truck and buggies throwing dirt 30 feet in the air and going over the whoops with ease, the public loved it. The sport is at a point where people enjoy watching it, putting unnecessary restrictions on it is silly. And it was the loudest and biggest that got the public on their feet.

spaz · In rehab

In my humble opinion it is not tyre size that is causing tracks to get rougher it is simply more cars with more horsepower!!
As there is only 1 or 2 pro buggy's running 37s you already have pro class putting up to 850hp through 35s without any problems so nothing is going to change in pro class.
You also have pro lite class putting out more and power, some are well over 400hp. With these 2 classes you have a very large percentage of the field.
Times have changed, you have more cars with more power with better everything going way faster and stopping way faster. All this is what i believe is whats causing the rougher trackers.
It has already been said that SeaLake was rougher this year. I think from memory there was only 3 Trucks with 37s. Someone correct me if i'm wrong! Do you think these 3 trucks with maybe 550hp made so much of a difference?? I think not. I am fully aware there is a problem at some tracks but limiting tyre size to 35s is not the answer.
Lastly just to throw so fuel in the other direction I think that limiting HP wouldn't be as hard or as expensive as people say. The use of restrictor plates and or 98 octane pump fuel would be a good place to start.
Let the discussion continue!!!

Stingray 2212 · Rehab Dropout...

So explain to me how capping the tyre size to 35" takes anything away from the visual thrill of the sport. I cant see how the spectators would notice.

You seem to contradict yourself, you said you went to 37's because you were spinning 35's which meant they were slipping & not generating speed.

Spinning your tyres with to much horsepower wont generate speed, it will wear out your tyres. The whole reason tyre size has increased is increased horsepower. The two are directly related.

I don't think restricting tyres to a sensible size which every car that is currently running can use, is a silly idea at all. It wont detract from the spectacle of the sport at all & it will prevent people from constantly attempting to increase horsepower.

branden2212 · Regular Poster

It's good that this discussion is continuing! Theres obviously alot of different opinions on the topic which is good and it's a good starting point! Personally if something doesnt change I wont be able to race my car at bigger races like Sealake. Millicent is already one I've ruled out as my car wouldn't make it around! This year at SeaLake two thirds of the track was 'Just get through' without being able to drive at any reasonable speed. I have grown up in the sport of offroad my whole life, I have what I would term a very budget car thats old but complies with all the current rules. Rules like this effect alot of things in the sport. Personally if something doesnt change regarding the harshness and deteriation of the tracks from the horsepower being put through ever increasing tyres I wont be able to compete at an ARB round in my car. Im a fan of the sport as much as a driver and I love watching big cars going as hard as they go but even before I purchased my car I have loved looking and watching older cars Compete. If we dont want any left competing then tyre sizes arent an issue and neither is the deteriation on the tracks that was never as bad as it is now. Theres been alot of things in the sport to slowly thin the numbers of old cars like mine, If nothing changes with tyres this will be another. I just want to compete in the sport and have some fun, Including doing an ARB race every year. My thought is it would be better to have more cars on a race track rather than less 'better' cars. If anyone was at Sea Lake this year they would have seen the two Lada Niva's going round in class 7. That was probably the best thing ive seen at an offroad race ever. They went there to finish and have fun which is what some people aim to do. Ive never seen people enjoy themselves as much as those people. Everyone has different ideas of a race weekend and thats great. In my opinion making this rule now would do alot to ensure this continues to be the case!

Pedroski · Forum Junkie

I don't agree with limiting tyre size and especially not HP or opening pandoras box to the multiple restrictions attitude like speedway.

I totally agree with Branden and the fact that racing an older buggy with limited suspension has become extremely difficult as you slam the floor plate on the centre tyre ruts from the massive HP and big gear tearing up the tracks. It bloody hurts and there is no solution other than A-Arm and dollars, which means parking up all of the old buggies and ruining a big chunk of the sport.

One of the main things I love about this sport is that we little cheap buggies race with the monsters on the same track at the same time, but the reality is the older smaller buggies will die out and the core group of family budget conscious people will stop racing or find another sport.

(Off topic but important to the issue) One thing missing in this is that I honestly can't see any real benefit in greater media presence or bigger faster trucks. Stupid I know as racing is all about going faster and being competitive, but really, put your hand up if any of the changes in the last few years have benefited anyone but the top ten. For a very long time the sport has been about passion and now it seems to be about dollars, sponsors and trying to compete with the V8's. Bigger tyres, more HP, more dollars = less competitors.

TOYOTAPOWR · In rehab

I am happy running 35's in fact any bigger is going to be worse not better. Only problem is BAJA T/A s which were 35 's are no longer available and the next best thing in a BFG is a KR2 which only comes in a 37.

Heemo276 · Regular Poster

Ivan, at the Pines Enduro last year we put an extra charge for a track re-instatement fee, it was maybe $20 for up to 3.5lt and I think $40 for over 3.5lt, trying to move forward with the times as this is going to need to become more common, we got a bit of negative feedback from some competitors about this which is tough because if it wasn't for Teagle Excavations I would hate to know what it would cost us to re-grade the track (remembering that we run on public forest roads and white metal roads which need to be put back like new) so it is something that all events will have to consider in the future, my personal opinion is to not limit tyre size, people don't have to be like sheep and follow, there is usually more than one way to get around a corner especially at the Pines and don't need to run through the big holes

Wolf · Rehab Dropout...

Interesting conversation.

I also agree with Adam, I reckon its simply more HP digging more holes and going down on tyre size wont make a lick of difference. Track re-instatement fee is only fair. Helps the landowner and prep the track for next year. I paid it at griffith without batting an eyelid.

digsy · Powerhouse Poster

I'm interested why you think it's traction that people are looking for when they go bigger tyres...?
The fastest guys with the most HP and the most traction right now are on 35s.

I think you will find that the guys running big tyres at the moment are trying to look for the biggest rolling radius in the rough.
Not to explain basics to you but if I roll over a stick with a 31" tyre verse rolling over it with a 37" tyre it's gonna be less of a "impact"
The same is true of the whoops at Finke and other tracks.

I can tell you that Billy Geddes was going to run 35" in Prologue because his car has more traction and more acceleration with that setup.... Doesn't seem to indicate that they are running big tyres for the "traction advantage"

I agree with Gavin - HP could be limited if they really wanted too... just like rally with a restrictor plate that everyone has to run - I don't believe it will stop the people at the front of the pack still being at the front of the pack.... And it won't stop the guys that can spend the money on making their motors stupid fast. Every racer looks for any advantage you can and if you have the right people, the right dollars and the right development you will still be able to pull a rabbit out of your hat!

As for the $$$/Media conversation - I understand you guys are the old guard and love off road racing the way it was - but if you don't want sponsorship and you don't want attention - cool - keep racing and having a good time - but from where I am standing as pretty much a budget racer I think it is really cool that 10 years ago when I talked to my mates about Goondiwindi, Finke or Trophy Trucks they looked at me blank.... where as now I can talk to just about anyone in Central Queensland and mention the word Finke and they have a general understanding of the event and the vehicles that race in it.
I have not benefited financially out of it one cent - however I support what they are doing with their impact on Free-to-air and Social Media as it has made a huge impact to regular joe public.

-- Edited by digsy on Friday 3rd of July 2015 07:42:13 PM

Stingray 2212 · Rehab Dropout...

A question for you digsy, if you put 800hp through 31' tyres how long would they last, how much of that 800hp could you actually put to the ground on 31' tyres?

tine · Rehab Dropout...

after reading this,i read an article on desert racing about the death of class one,,bigger tyres turned out to be a major factor,the reason why the trucks keep going bigger tyres were to get more miles out of them,trucks get 120 miles out of the rears,,,thinking HP and tyres don't last,,,

Brett Price · Powerhouse Poster

Im not against development or progress but larger diameter tyres will dig deeper trenches and cars who cant reach the bottom of these trenches will search for firm ground. Ivan you point about wheel slip at 200kph is interesting but maybe you could share the wheel slip figures from 20-100kph because that is where the damage is done. These tracks and events are for the enjoyment of all and there will never be parity but the gap between what tyre a Production 4WD, Sportsman and Super 1650 can run and what the TT and Pro Buggys can run is getting bigger.

Production 4WD, Sportsman and Super 1650 have remained at 33 or lower but Pro Buggys (Class 1) and extreme 2WD (Class 4) have gone from 33s to 35s and now some are running 37s and 39s and talk of 41s. Where will this end without some intervention.