discussion and comment is a Class proposal from Shane Heemskerk....

Webmaster · Rehab Dropout...

discussion and comment is a Class proposal from Shane Heemskerk....

Lamby · In rehab

Great proposal, I'd leave the classes as they are and just introduce a new class for 1650-2500 4cyl engines.

gav24 · In rehab

I agree the gap between 1650 and 3500 is to large but leave the classes alone and add another there is enough cars for it so why not

Heemo276 · Regular Poster

Thanks for posting on here for discussion, I went to my last state panel meeting(SA) and beought the proposal along which everyone listened too and for the most part agreed with, however we decided to take out any merging of classes and add in 4cylinder N/A which i just forgot to add, it was then re-written and emailed back to my state panel chair person, so no need for any class 3 people to get up in arms i'm not trying kick anyone out of the sport just feel there is a need for a class between S1650 and Pro-lite.

barron312 · Newbie

Why in the email I received today does it say about merging sportsman and s1650 this class would suite someone who would be looking to import a class 10 from the states which is where there is such a class if it does go a head there should be more limits on it for the guys who have that little bit bigger budget

Heemo276 · Regular Poster

Dear State Panel Reps, I would like to propose a new class to be introduced into our sport, Iâm not asking for it to happen straight away, but I would like some serious thought to be put into it for the long term benefit of our sport. Currently there is a big gap between the Super 1650 class and the Pro-lite class, I would like to see an âup to 2550â class. My opinion is to not have any restrictions on this class (other than the engine capacity) to keep in line with the rest of the current buggy classes, I would also like to see this as a 1 or 2 seat class. Here is how I would see the class being defined: Buggies with engines up to 2550cc 4 cylinder naturally aspirated A one or two seat, two wheel drive automobile, as defined in GR 1 Engine capacity shall be up to 2550cc 4 cylinder naturally aspirated (as defined in GR 1, where a car runs a single seat, the drivers seat may be either centrally located or to the left or right of centre. Any such vehicle may only compete in that configuration if an unused seat and harness is removed.) I would be happy to take any calls or messages relating to this proposal. Regards, Shane Heemskerk This is my edited proposal which should have been sent out before the original was released, and if you did read my original proposal correctly i did say 2 options, i never said class 2 & 3 had to be merged, it was just an option for peoples thoughts, i have since disregarded that thought!

Stingray 2212 · Rehab Dropout...

I don't understand the paranoia around turbo's, they are cheap horsepower. Other than that I think the new class proposal is great.

Kick my dog · In rehab

I like the proposal but would not want to limit the class to 4 cylinders.

2550cc capacity, cylinder count free.

Cheers

heyu · Patron, 2013 AORC CHAMPION TIPSTER

I concur with Lamby.

This would round out the Classes nicely

gav24 · In rehab

Everyone I have spoken to so far is all for a class inbetween 1650 and 3500

scooter · Forum Addict

As long as the existing super 1650cc class is left completely alone !!!!!!!!!!!!

Heemo276 · Regular Poster

There is no suggestion of changing the S1650 class at all

Scott · Regular Poster

Why 4 Cyl only? A 1300cc rotary powered buggy would have similar HP as a 2550cc motor, but with less torque and less reliability.

heyu · Patron, 2013 AORC CHAMPION TIPSTER

So all we need now is the Guys that are interested in the new class to show their intent by replying to the links provided.
At least this will show how many are going to support this and see where it goes from there!

Kick my dog · In rehab

Better than a rotary...

spaz · In rehab

All for a new class up to 2550cc but make then run a restrictor plate in front of throttle body to keep everyone at same HP.
This will keep costs down and make it a drivers class not dependant on engine power and the size of your wallet. This will attract
more competitors like it does it the US with class 10 and 6100.

Flagg · Regular Poster

I support the new class for 1650cc to 2550cc. Use same recipe as Pro-Lite which has worked well.

If the new 2550cc class does gets up, you then have too many classes again though. However I think there is a great opportunity to reform the Super 1650 and Sportsman classes to compliment the new class. At the same time it would be in the sports interest if some consideration was given to modest changes that do not seriously impact current competitors. The sport could use a class which puts some basic limits on cost, provides some parity, but is easy to enforce. The old Clubman class went too far with its 23mm restrictor and failed. I spoke to one that tried it on his old buggy with standard 4age and it became asthmatic. He just wanted to compete in a class with more parity but he went back to Super 1650 even though he wasn't competitive.

I suggest,

Merge Sportsman and Super 1650 and allow single seat up to 1330cc and two seater up to 1650cc.

This allows any existing Sportsman buggy to remain competitive by losing about 100+kg of navigator and equipment (yet still able to run 2 people if they wish).

As a means of providing more parity and affordability, put a couple of simple restrictions around it. Borrowing some elements of the old Clubman rules:

only allow h pattern production based box (VW, Porsche, Renault, etc.). Due to gearbox shift type, motorcycle powered buggies would therefore not be eligible and no exotic competition gearboxes/transaxles allowed (Albins, Mendeola, etc.).

restrict number of shocks per wheel - 1 front, 2 rear (coil-over allowed) but no external by-pass.

Constant Velocity (CV) and/or universal joints shall be inboard of all rear wheel bearings.

I don't support restricting to beam axles only as I think that as time marches on a-arms will become the norm and just as affordable as beam, but let me know what you think. Any Super 1650 with an albins and bypass shocks etc. etc. will have the option of competing in 2550 or, change the box, remove some shocks and stay and play.

Regards, Brett.

scooter · Forum Addict

BRETT super 1650 is a very well represented class it works well it is cost affective in its current form why would anybody want to merge it or make a fleet of new rules ????? leave super 1650 alone !!!!!! make a new class if you feel the need but leave what works alone . regards Scott

gav24 · In rehab

Agree totally Scott just add a new class don't mess with ones that work my sportsman runs external bypass on the rear it doesn't make me anywhere near as fast as most of the 1650s out there would basically force me to swap motors or sell the car

Flagg · Regular Poster

Totally respect what you are saying guys, but my suggestion is in context of creating yet another expensive buggy class - 2550. If everyone wants it then great but I just don't see a need for two "two seat only" classes 300cc apart under 1650cc as well. How many classes does the sport need? There will then be 5 capacity buggy classes if 2550 gets up. It seems everyone wants a class for their pet engine capacity.

The reason offroad events are being cancelled isnt because of lack of classes, it's a lack of strategic ideas to make the sport more affordable at the entry level AND with more parity. The difference in performance and cost today in a top dollar a arm 1650 and a beam buggy with a 4age is huge.

Parity and affordability is where you will get people entering and re-entering the sport if they see a level playing field. It adds to the fun.

Don't even get me stared on performance 2wd. What a joke, another entry level class gone to the dogs with big dollar v8 monsters. Another opportunity where a couple of rules could create parity and a reasonable level of affordability.

Please take these comments in the spirit they are intended, ideas and discussion in a thread about a new buggy class proposal.

Peace ✌
Brett

Brett Price · Powerhouse Poster

My thoughts;-

Good proposal Shane, well thought out and presented.
There is a big gap and 2.55 L fits in nicely.
Leave the number of cylinders free, why... Why not. Keep it interesting with several options.
Don't touch the other classes, this will only upset someone.
Leave it free of any restrictions, let's face it if you want an economy class use other options.
Allow forced induction as it is with 1650, if it proves unfair manage it with a control restrictor plate.
I have no objections to single seaters if someone can show me no time difference with 0-160 acceleration tests 100kg lighter.
Motorbike single seater can mix it with pro lite so will dominate 2.5. Twin seats will even this out.
Lastly check what the manufacturers have in the pipeline, 2.55 L might be about to be scrapped. Future proof.

SAracer · In rehab

I think it is a brilliant class idea and would support it all the way.

I like the idea of 2.5lt but any number of cylinders. A good way to get some variety into the class and different option for people to get creative.
Single seater vs twin seater: Im ALL FOR single seaters being allows in all classes. Yes maybe the acceleration is greater off the mark, but I tell ya what... Having a good navi with a second set of eyes would make up for that any day of the week.
And if a motorbike powered car is dominating... build one or convert to a motorbike engine. Its all about advancing and racing and having competitive fun in my opinion. It gives people a chance to innovate and experiment.

Im 100% behind the new class.

PS - Leave super 1650 alone... very close and affordable racing all around the country

Cheers
Luke

scooter · Forum Addict

If any body believes big dollar arm 1650s are unbeatable go and talk to dereck rose !!! He doesn't seem to have problem winning in 20 year old beam car with wrecking yard engines . I don't understand people trying to fix a class that's not broken , and most of them seem to be from other classes !!! Fix your class leave class 2 alone . Regards Scott

digsy · Powerhouse Poster

Love the class proposal - I think it will be awesome!

Just a thought - why limit it to buggies - I reckon a combined class would be awesome for bragging and fun - there are a ton of cheap TrophyLites/BajaLites (and Class 3000?) cars from USA that are for sale with a Ecotec that would slip straight into this class. And I reckon they would be popular! Plenty of kids want a TT but can't afford one..... Beats me why it's not like they win anything..... HAHA

But seriously - open it up to anything with a 2550cc motor - it would be a hoot!

Lamby · In rehab

Probably not a bad idea, I hadn't thought of the truck side of things but I can see that it would work.

KUSTERRACECO · In rehab

and maybe a few old class 4s (baja)

FULLSCALE · Forum Addict

Just a short run down on engines that would work in this class a driver would look at shows some interesting standard Kw figures. There are a fair number of engines including some very competitive 2000cc engines.

Even the SR20VE is close if you look at local road cars. Mazda6 @ 138, 2AR Camry @ 135, Honda Euro @ 138 with variants to 156, plus a couple of German makes in the 160's or more. Add a 3SGE Beams at 154, a 4GRFSE @ 155

(IS250) and the VQ25 @ 140 and there are 2 V6 engines with adaptor plates and clutches already out there.

Great class great idea.

Stingray 2212 · Rehab Dropout...

I would just like to ask why make this class 4 cyl only & naturally aspirated only? It makes no sense to me at all. A small 1.4 litre turbo engine would be ideal for any older car to convert to this class. You could still even use a kombi gearbox quite easily. If someone can point out the logic for banning turbo's I'm quite happy to listen but up to this point there has been no discussion as to why they wont be allowed.

Heemo276 · Regular Poster

my reason is because i want it kept very simple and easy, if the class does happen to get through, CAMS may not define the class exactly as i have proposed they may change things depending on competitors feedback, so email fred and give him your feedback

TOYOTAPOWR · In rehab

Any progress on the proposal?