JUST A BIT PEED-OFF!

jones off road · Rehab Dropout...

JUST A BIT PEED-OFF!

Wolf · Rehab Dropout...

there are a few options. you can buy belts under a different standard which are good for 5 years.

theres also the guy in qld who will re-web and re-stamp belts at about half the cost of new ones.

I understand why they bought the rule in, to stop the use of belts being used for ages and losing thier effectiveness, but agree that 2 years is a bit ridiculous for a set of belts which have seen little use and/or been well looked after....

got a soluiton?

MARTIN OFF ROAD · Forum Junkie

Jones this sport has some very dum rules. We can go as fast as we like we can carry as much fuel as we like. The sport is great but some of the thin some people come up with shock me.

dessert-people · Rehab Dropout...

why dont we just go with what the manufactures say and if someone turns up with damaged belts the scrutineer should pick it up. furious

Forum Junkie

The scruitineer has to pass a car for racing, they have to pass your helmet, your race suit, your shoes, your seat, everything about your car, even the bolts & metal that the harness is attached to, Why cant they assess the condition of the harness. They have to assess everything else? Makes no sense to me & never has & I suppose never will. The argument we were given when the rule was enforced was that after 2 years, the environmental / sun etc / damage caused the hearness to lose a safety factor. Tell me, who's car lives outside?
Blah, Blah, Blah, Bitch moan. Sorry, but am well vented now.

jones off road · Rehab Dropout...

I also needed to vent, thats why I started this thread.
I have allowed voting on this for 1 week, everyone please have a vote, then we can see if it would be worthwhile to approach state panel reps etc!
I reckon a 4 year life would be realistic....but I would still like to know if there has ever been a failure, that might justify this rule. As I said earlier, many other motorsport diciplines dont have this rule.

In rehab

At any time you can walk into my garage & see 6 blue unfaded 5 point harnesses hanging up & the only way to tell which ones are current for the car is to look at the tags ie. they ARE NOT deteriorated , even the kids paddock basher has perfect harnesses in it. I agree it's a dumb rule. I say give the scrutineers the same power I have when doing a registration check, if they look dodgy get rid of them, even if it means for practicality to write a warning note in the log book for the next scrutineer & tell the owner not to present the car to anyone else without new belts

In rehab

Maybe for safety we should also renew our steel valve caps every 2 years as well

Powerhouse Poster

The problem is in this day and age of everyone sueing everyone what scrutineer would want to have the say on your belts,but I guess thats why they now write NAFF instead of OK in your logbook

jones off road · Rehab Dropout...

260 wrote:

Maybe for safety we should also renew our steel valve caps every 2 years as well

Yep, got to agree, those valve caps could rust......and imagine the catastrophe that could follow!

Hmmmm, maybe this is the type of logic the rule makers use.

Arewindow nets/wrist restraints classed as a restraint system also? If so, why dont they need to be replaced every two years?

dessert-people · Rehab Dropout...

bloody hell jones dont give the boneheads any more ideas, i herd a wisper that there is going to be a 3 year limit on helmets , and you think belts are expensive furious

Forum Junkie

Interesting to note, I recently (withing last 6 months) bought window nets for my car, they did come with the same date tag that the harness's have on them. I will be removing them before it's first race so no one gets any ideas.

Carbyman · sponsor

we will all be at jones farm with expensive paddock bashers soon if they keep that cr#p up or all have garage Queens

Forum Junkie

Bit concerned about mutant roosters at Jones's farm. Have heard what they do to race cars.

Renegade · Forum Addict

It's not the scrutineers who wish to impose the 2 year rule on everyone using SFI harnesses. So don't blame them (us) or even CAMS for it. It's a rule across the board and EVERY level of motorsport in Australia has to abide by it. I was at a PIARC (Phillip Island Auto Race Club) meeting a couple of months ago for a HANS seminar and they were bitching about the same thing.

It is brought about by SFI telling racers that after 2 years of thrash and bash that their harnesses should be worn out and in need of replacement IN AMERICA. You need to realize the guys over there may race up to twice a week, every week of the year so after 2 years their equipment is greatly more worn out than ours.

I know, because I have been told, that AIMSS (Aust Inst. of Motorsport Safety) is looking into the issue due to the differences but need to validate that there is no safety risk posed if they decree outside the SFI's own limits as there will be someone out there that WILL sue for the sake of it if they think they can get away with it. Or worse yet, someone gets killed from an incorrect decision.

Until a change is made i doubt there is a scrutineer alive that is willing to knowingly put his/her house on the line to make a few people happy.

Unfortunate but these are the realities of the world we have created for ourselves.

jones off road · Rehab Dropout...

Great reply renegade, but are you sure all levels (cams affilliated) abide by this?
I dont expect scutineers to be liable for the seat belts, but why do seat belts present more liability than the rest of the vehicle....that they inspect?
Hey carby man, got my buggy finished today nearly, I should have my own track made soon, approx 40km lap, a selected few (who wont sue me) will be invited for our own private race days....but I wont reject 2 year old seat belts.
DP, dont start on the helmets, I already have out of date ones hanging with the belts....hey, maybe they'd be a better spot for the chooks to nest!! Makes for expensive free range eggs!!!

Stingray 2212 · Rehab Dropout...

Ah Jones, my favorite subject. Renegade is correct in part, it is not the scrutineers fault. The fault lies directly with CAMS. Very simply CAMS can introduce their own standard. They can set a specific breaking strain, stiching, hardware etc. They could then decree that belts that comply with CAMS standard 1234 have a life of X years. This standard may well be the same as the SFI standard but as the belts are CAMS labeled, their shelf life becomes the rule.
Just by the way, does anyone know why an FIA spec belt has a Five year life as opposed to the SFI two year? I do because I contacted a manufacturer when all this crap first started. The webbing used is the same, the reason FIA belts have five years is that there is an assumption that these belts are used on bitumen not dirt. So in short CAMS is prepared to allow the use of a belt that is not designed to be used on dirt tracks, but refuses to look at SFI lifespan.

In answer to your question about belts actually breaking, information is hard to get. I have emailed the SFI foundation several times but no reply. Read into that what you wish. Again when this first started a guy who had been an accident investigator for ten years said that he had never seen a seatbelt break no matter how frayed or faded. Belts do not break, the emperor has no clothes.

Some of us have been getting worried about the introduction of race boots, driving suits etc. The bottom line is that if they have an SFI standard they will have a shelf life. Be clear about this, the SFI sells it's standard. If you were a manufacturer why would you buy the SFI standard if your product lasted until it got damaged or worn out. Much better for your profit if people had to replace them long before they are worn out.

In closing, some homework . What are aircraft standards regarding seat belts?

Trekka273 · sponsor

Stingray 2212 wrote:

Ah Jones, my favorite subject. Renegade is correct in part, it is not the scrutineers fault. The fault lies directly with CAMS. Very simply CAMS can introduce their own standard. They can set a specific breaking strain, stiching, hardware etc. They could then decree that belts that comply with CAMS standard 1234 have a life of X years. This standard may well be the same as the SFI standard but as the belts are CAMS labeled, their shelf life becomes the rule.
Just by the way, does anyone know why an FIA spec belt has a Five year life as opposed to the SFI two year? I do because I contacted a manufacturer when all this crap first started. The webbing used is the same, the reason FIA belts have five years is that there is an assumption that these belts are used on bitumen not dirt. So in short CAMS is prepared to allow the use of a belt that is not designed to be used on dirt tracks, but refuses to look at SFI lifespan.

In answer to your question about belts actually breaking, information is hard to get. I have emailed the SFI foundation several times but no reply. Read into that what you wish. Again when this first started a guy who had been an accident investigator for ten years said that he had never seen a seatbelt break no matter how frayed or faded. Belts do not break, the emperor has no clothes.

Some of us have been getting worried about the introduction of race boots, driving suits etc. The bottom line is that if they have an SFI standard they will have a shelf life. Be clear about this, the SFI sells it's standard. If you were a manufacturer why would you buy the SFI standard if your product lasted until it got damaged or worn out. Much better for your profit if people had to replace them long before they are worn out.

In closing, some homework . What are aircraft standards regarding seat belts?

I agree, two years seeems to be a bit stupis, especially when during that two years fo use the belts in a lot of cases are only being used less then ten times.

However, just to point something out, I don't think the time limit is placed on the belts to actually prevent the belts from breaking, or because there is a belief that the belts will break. The chances of the belts breaking are extremely small. As you would all know, if you are involved in a large accident, the belts will actually stretch quite substantially. This stretching will often be the only thing that saves you from very serious internal injury. If the belts don't stretch, then your body will stop moving, but the internals won't, and that is when the biggest damage is caused. From my understanding, it is stated that UV damage, damage from minor accidents, etc, even though not noticeable on the belts, can prevent them from doing the job they are designed for when they are really required.

Carbyman · sponsor

jones count me in to the "race around the farm"

Wolf · Rehab Dropout...

well, one vote for, 22 against. interesting....

Forum Junkie

wondering if the one vote is someone who sells harness's, or am I being cynical? I mean no offence if I am right.

Erich · Powerhouse Poster

all though i don't race, every one i know that does race thinks the seat belt rule is a load of bolloks...

dessert-people · Rehab Dropout...

that one vote was me, i pushed the wrong button , but if you like i can sell you some out of date belts there cheap furious

Marty · Regular Poster

I've heard whispers that CAMS is about to make an announcement regarding seatbelts.

Apparently the 3" belts will be OK for 10 years (instead of the current 5) - but must be checked for nicks and wear.

I don't know if this applies to SFI belts - or just the FIA certified ones.

It raises a number of isssues. If, as a scrutineer, I check Joe Bloggs' harness, and I can't see anything wrong with it, and sign his form. Joe and his buggy meet a tree at high speed, and his harness fails - will I be held culpable? Will my behind be covered by CAMS?

I guess we'll have to wait for the press release.... maybe it will enlighten us...

Wolf · Rehab Dropout...

good news, fingers crossed!

jones off road · Rehab Dropout...

Maybe the liability is covered by the N.A.F.F. that is written in the log book....no APPARENT fault found!

In rehab

I, like many others pass many cars for registration each week & although I have to sign off on any items where it is up to me as to whether they meet the regulations, and/or wear limits of the day, (not many people are aware but on the top of your registration form there is a statement put ther by the RTA for our (my) protection to the effect that while the vehicle has just passed the ncessary inspections it has by no means therefore passed a full mechanical check-over) I have no problem sleeping nights making a judgement call to pass a seatbelt, but I also have no problem rejecting a belt if I feel it necessary. I'm sure that if a scrutineer is on the ball, at the end of the day IF a belt was to fail I'm sure the scrutineer would be allowed to keep his house. If not Who would bother to do it?

JOHNSON RACING · Powerhouse Poster

I KNOW WHAT YOU MEAN, MY BELTS HAVE DONE 2 RACES AND NOW I CANT USE THEM AGAIN, BLOODY REDICULOUS.

-- Edited by JOHNSON RACING at 21:33, 2008-09-09

jones off road · Rehab Dropout...

Hey Paul,
I dont know the details of your crash at Milbrodale, but do you think seat belt age could affect the outcome? Or would you be happy to have a 10yr old set in the same circumstances?

boss truck · Rehab Dropout...

l don't no what other people think about this but in my opinion after any major impact or roll-over l think belts should be cut by the powers that be at the race or do you think people should be able to run them again for the next 2,5 or 10 years. People might want to take the chance but what if the car is sold on and the next budget type racer buy's said vehical as a ready to race package without this kwowledge.