And I'll Throw in the rest of the car if they want to buy the spare box for half price as well.

-- Edited by BAJAs RULE on Friday 18th of December 2009 06:32:46 AM

I toally agree with you Gavin, extreme 2wd class has been bastardised because of a loop hole in the rules that has been exploited by, so far one competitor. And if this is not fixed now, then it will be harder to fix when more and more pro class competitors decide its too hard to run with the big boys and invade an easier class to win or regularly score points.

A buggy is a buggy!!! As long as it has a transaxle and the motor in the back and a full space frame construction it is a buggy, no matter what decoration you put on it!!! Yes a Truck and a buggy share some similarities they are both space frame construction and both share an A arm front suspension set up but thats where it ends. A Truck has a traditional driveline set up Motor, gearbox. tailshaft and diff and resembles a manufacturers vehicle.... Not that hard to get your head around, really.

The exact way to solve this issue? I`m not sure at the moment but i have some ideas that i will put forward to the appropriate channels. One of the them however is manufacturers engine placement. If it looks like a Chev Truck it has to have the engine in the same place that Chev put. In the front!! Or at least in front of the center point of the vehicle.

We need a definate line between Buggy`s and Trucks because i see a rivalry beginning between Buggy peope and Truck peolpe and i think that is a good thing for our sport. Joe public loves a good rivalry and we haven`t had that sort of rivalry in our sport. (like ford and holden in supercars. they have their massive succes to thank for it.) We now have a Buggy vs Truck rivalry in its infancy, lets not lose the potential that has by bastardising it and having no definitive difference between the two.

Michael Taylor

Why couldn't it be as simple as it needs to run a live axle
or in the Porsche's case or similar where a transaxle is factory fitted it would need to retain chassis rails/floorpan

You are correct "old boy"
I was there for the discussions in around the year 2000. (So was Ben, the present AORCOM chairman.)
My recollection of the intention by the National panel was:
Always have a place for the fastly dissapearing Baja class for historic reasons.
Create a class for those who could not conform to the rules of Class 5.
At that time they were made to compete in Class 1.
Create a class that would allow extreme cars to be built that that would resemble production cars. (Front and rear)
This was to be like the old Class 6 but with a lot more latitude and expression.
I believe that this class is just arriving at the vision of 2000.(Rightly or wrongly)
I can understand that some people have not gone extreme enough and want to change the rules to restrict engineering developement of this class to less than what was intended.
Maybe we need another class (Just joking).
This is a great discussion.

I race just for fun and outright position anyway but those that suggest that everyone should look at it that way are are being a bit naive. If you are getting guys putting a body on a buggy for a sponsor that reflects the growth of the sport and it stands to reason that sponsors would like to see there exposure maximised with results.

Even within the buggy classes there is a disparity within the class that cannot be addressed unless you have heaps more classes. I dont see this as some trying to slow down a select few (I could never keep up with a Gallards truck but it fits the class mould)but more about buggys coming out of their classes where they do fit and coming into classes where they dont fit.

Im not doing it Garry.

I was only trying to stir Danny up.

Jason,

It goes without saying how high the level of engineering is in todays buggies.
I guess I am still attracted to the WOLF in SHEEPS CLOTHING type of cars and the general public are too.
I love truggies, but one of my favourite cars in Xtreme 2wd is Gavins, a very neat and obviously well engineered car.
Maybe the rules for Production 2 wd should be looked at as this class is just not happening on the east coast at a state level, but neither are any of the four wheel drive classes.
How about 4 wd buggies???? Over the years this has been put forward, but never got much support, even though I believe they were successful in Europe.

Maurie

Before we start, I agree that Chris's business and his professional manner are sensational for the sport, however the issue here is simply the Pro Buggy running in Class 4, not in Pro Buggy class.

This debate has nothing to do with the evolution of Class 4 and it has nothing to do with new technology entering the class/sport (some tags holding some panels on. what the.).
It also has nothing to do with Chris being faster than me. Gee, I wont ever be catching the likes of Brad G any time soon and there is no debate there.

Chris has every right (under the current rules) to put his hand up and run in the class, so today the debate is an ethical one and a debate about potential rule changes.
It has everything to do with a buggy running in a class that ethically was not designed for a buggy (in any way) .

By the same token, he has every right to run in the Pro Buggy class.
The buggy had panels before..what changed, to say it should now run in Class 4 now. I am not sure that changing the shape of the panels, now makes it ethically right to change classes.
No more technology introduced and the buggy was not looking for a class to belong in. It had a class, and for that matter still does.

I am also thinking that the difference between the classes should be more than some tags and some glass. Every other class is separated from each other by chassis or capacity.

So I am with Gavin on pushing for a change to the Class 4 rules.

I am also keen for Chris to keep the new look buggy racing ( in Pro Buggy ) so there will be a link be between the hearts and minds of the spectators (it looks more like a car) and the sport, potentially good for the sponsors.

As we all know, any change (if it happens) will only be effected if there is a weight of numbers hitting the right ears. If there is enough people with similar thoughts and they are prepared to raise this in the right forums (not here), there might be some change.
If not, then we are destined to phase out the existing truck engineering / direction.
I have invested my share of bucks and that might just be a very bad decision (in the competitive stakes).

Perhaps I too should have just purchased a buggy and drop some panels on it.
I just didn't think of it at the time.

JS
Car 455

I still find it very hard to understand what the big deal is.  Extreme 2wd includes both trucks AND cars (with the engines in the front or rear) So, as long as rear engined cars are included, you can run a buggy(with pannels) in this class.  Perhaps we need to remove cars from the class with rear engines.  So this means no Beetles, Porsches and most definitely no V drive Trophy trucks....thats a bit disappointing don't you think! 

At what point does a Baja become a buggy??Is it when it gets A arms? when the floor pan gets removed or the wheel base changes....If this is the case why should the front engined cars and trucks have all the freedom.   

Is the problem the body or the buggy? If its the buggy, then ethics or tradition have very little to do with it!      

It's great to see so many people have an opinion on what should happen in this class. It's even dragged Aztec out for a few comments.
Could all the people who have taken time to post thier point of view please also take time to view Gavin Mickle's email on this website and send any constructive comments to Gavin, so we can get a direction for this classes future.
Cheers
Greg

'I toally agree with you Gavin, extreme 2wd class has been bastardised because of a loop hole in the rules that has been exploited by, so far one competitor'

There is no loophole in the rules because when the rule for engine/ driveline configuration was deleted it was discussed about buggies with panels along with a letter from a proffesional truck/chassis builder regarding rear engine/transaxle trucks. There is no mystery, AORCOM at that time was more than happy to see extreme 2wd develop and expand. Discussion also included mid/rear/v drive trophy trucks.

Something Garry wrote..... somewhere, has made me think.
We absolutely accept truggy's into pro class, pro lite, Super 1650, any class where buggies hold the majority of the field. No question, no ummmms, no ahhhhhhs. Thats where they race.
A Truggy is not a Buggy, ( not really sure what a buggy is anymore). A truggy is a truck that dosent wear a trucks clothing. ( If I am incorrect Im sure I will be corrected).
So, the only difference between a truggy, & a truck, is the body.
Why cant it work the other way?
If, somehow, the rules were to be modified so that "Bucks" are not allowed into Extreme 2wd, Wouldnt they also need to be changed to stop Truggys racing with Buggies? Where would they go?
Just something to play on your mind as it has mine.

brad i know you have been out of the scene for a while but class 1 is now pro lite and knowing what engine you are running the prolite boys would not be happy

This thread is slowly moving from the topic of buggies in extreme 2wd to trying to define what is a truck, what is a buggy.

Traditionally its always been the body, hence no arguments about truggies in pro class. now though???