Class Structure Going Forward

jones off road · Rehab Dropout...

RE: Class Structure Going Forward

KUSTERRACECO · In rehab

well said jonesy the harder you work the luckier you get. but the older you get the more you battle

Trekka273 · sponsor

Well said Jonesy. I look at the guys running in the top level cars and admire them. There is also jealousy there, because I would love to have what they have, but for different reasons I don't. Fact of life, there will always be someone with better stuff then you. If I made different choices over thepast 7-7 years I could probably have a good car that I would be happy with now, but the fact is I chose a different path, so it is my fault that I don't have the car I want. It isn't the fault of any other competitor, so I say good luck to them!

Look at Nev... he sat out of the sport for a good few years and came back with a Jimco, and all power to him, i wish I could get a ride in it!!

dessert-people · Rehab Dropout...

jones off road wrote:

dessert-people wrote:

king kong wrote:

The sport is a sport of battlers and acheivable for most people so lets keep it that way at state level and national level.

-- Edited by king kong on Thursday 16th of July 2009 05:31:26 PM

im not so sure at national level thats its a battlers sport

Sorry DP, but to suggest any part of our sport does not involve 'battlers' really pisses me off!!

If you look at 99% of anyone/individual in our sport, they do the best they can with their knowledge/ability/experience/and dollars.
Whether it be at the top-end, or club, everyone does the best they can under their personal circumstance.
What do you class as a 'battler'?
If you look at most of the 'national level' competitors, they started off with buggies no where near what they currently drive, no where near the tow vehicles they currently have, no where near the current cost.
Maybe to get where they are they fore-go certain things, social life, ouse extension, new car, holidays, family functions!
Maybe they decided after driving an old class6 car, they should get a better job, so they can afford a class2, then maybe a better job with overtime for a class1, then maybe self-employed so they can go to some nationals?
Mybe, instead of the 'tall poppy' syndrome that only a minority of off-roaders have, some of you should give credit to those people who organised their lives to get where they are?
Look-up to them and see what might be acheived....or sit back and whinge, but either way its your decision!
I personally still intend to compete with a nice new chenowth, in pro-class, some time in the future.....and every 'life' decision I make allows for that possibility, if it does'nt happen, thats my fault..........If someone else gets the chance.....GOOD ON THEM BATTLERS!!!

i think that a bloke that has worked hard and made enough to go racing is bloody fantasic he mite have started out a battler but i think he has moved on past that status, and i still stand at the fence and get a woody every time a jimco goes flying by or a twin turbo buggy shoots a flame out and burns my afro off , how i dont have a problem with the idea that we should be all self employed but if every body was there would be no work force to exploit and we would end up the same ,just like communism, i like your thinking jonesy

furious

-- Edited by dessert-people on Friday 17th of July 2009 11:05:20 PM

KUSTERRACECO · In rehab

carefull what you wish for trekka

boss truck · Rehab Dropout...

If you are offering rides Nev l am looking for one at Gundy our car will be close but not close enough so anyone looking here l am.

Trekka273 · sponsor

KUSTERRACECO wrote:

carefull what you wish for trekka

Don't tease me Nev!!! biggrin

LIAbillity · Rehab Dropout...

totaly agrre with you jonesy ,
sorta made me think of me in a way ,
i've moved across the country just to be able to afford to race a class 2 ,
and hope that mabe one day i might , just might get there ,

jones off road · Rehab Dropout...

LIAbillity wrote:

totaly agrre with you jonesy ,
sorta made me think of me in a way ,
i've moved across the country just to be able to afford to race a class 2 ,
and hope that mabe one day i might , just might get there ,

Geez Jero, with what your earning now, you should already be in a Chenowth (as I said Nev, too many Jimcos)!

Maybe your spending too much on loose women, and grog?

OZ_40 · Newbie

I agree that the new class structure is good, and if it ain't broke don't fix it.

however there are a few suggestions that i would offer up for debate;

There dosn't seam to be a budget single seater class. Personally i would be interested in a single seater in either sportsman or super 1650. Would a capacity change for single seaters (like SCORE class 10) be a good compromise
sportsman (2 seater) - 1350
sportsman (Single seater) - 1000

super 1650 (2 seater) - 1650
super 1650 (single seater) - 1350

also a capacity change to NA limit of 8 litres and leave Tc/Sc limit of 6 litres. This would allow some cheaper alternative v8 competive engines.
with a 454 going 7.44 litres.

Also allowing turbo motors into pro lite offering a much larger pool of available motors.
allowing upto a 2 litre motor to be run in this class

luke

p.s. i am not currently racing but it stays a goal of mine.

OZ_40 · Newbie

OZ_40 wrote:

Also allowing turbo motors into pro lite offering a much larger pool of available motors.
allowing upto a 2 litre motor to be run in this class

Just reread what i wrote, that would allow a SR20 into pro-lite. that is not a good thing.

maybe keep pro-lite Na is a good idea

luke

LIAbillity · Rehab Dropout...

yeah more like the latter jones'y safari just finished here in kal tonight , lol
pritty good night at the exchange , think the skinpy's made a fortune too

i've been woundering the same thing my self ,
i should be in a bigger and better car
must be all the tax i pay ,

is it possible to start a non for profit busness for racing ,
where i could donate a small portion ( or all ) of my wage
which would get me my parts free of GST ?

Flagg · Regular Poster

Hi guys,

I've been lurking for a while and have read many discussions about classes over the years. I have done quite a bit of rallying club, state and ARC level and understand the challenges of having fun and running on a budget, competitive urge and ever increasing costs to remain competitive. The reason I have chimed in here is that I have been seriously considering getting into offroad.

I have been to a few events recently and a long time ago and have fond memories of one AORC manning a checkpoint and nearly being cleaned up by an out of control Les Sivour! Anyway enough rambling, I though you just might be interested in my two cents as someone that has carefully read the class rules (2009) and am considering what to build/buy/run.

My two cents:

1. One too many classes - drop sportsman class and merge with super1650

2. amend super1650 rules to be beam axle only. This is now your entry class. In this class allow single seat up to 1300cc. You can now decide which way to run and the relatively small number of current sportsman competitors can kick out the navigator (if they want) and be more competitive with 1650 or power up if/when they choose.

3. leave pro-lite (good sound class concept)

4. leave pro-class (you have to have a F1 for off-road)

5. Performance 2wd - where do I start.....too many freedoms, you can build what is basically a Extreme 2wd truck with 2 chassis rails and a firewall. I have seen on the recent tv coverage that someone appears to have done just that. This as I understand is meant to be an entry class for people who prefer tin tops. If I am wrong than delete the class and merge with extreme 2wd. If it is meant to be an entry class, tighten the rules a bit in respect of modifications to chassis and body panels. I wont go into detail here to save boring you, but I think that it should be more production based.

6. Exteme 2wd- ahh tricky, particularly with the porsche and baga issues. I am still undecided whether you allow buggies with truck bodies, but seems a bit silly really. What is the point of having a class for that? There has to be a discerning feature between extreme 2wd and proclass other than a fibreglass body.

Hope these comments are taken in the spirit they are offered as I think offroad is great and has great potential. I will probably be a G'windi to support the queenslanders. I am still undecided which type of vehicle to start in but it may be P2wd. who knows? hope to be out there with you one day.

PS great forum guys and gals.

Cheers Brett.

5.

Flagg · Regular Poster

Hi again,

whooops forgot the 4wd boys.

both classes seem to be fine to me! a production and a modified - sounds like good idea for the Performance 2wd and exteme 2wd maybe?

Cheers, Brett.

Tassie Devil · In rehab

Hi Brett,

Welcome to the forum and thanks for your input.

If you are coming out to Gundy you will see some great off road racing action, but also don't be shy in coming up and introducing yourself to people as we will all be keen to answer any questions you may have about our fantastic form of motor-sport.

I will be the CRO (Competitor Relations Officer) this weekend, so i will be wondering around the pits with a bright fluoro green jacket on, so come and say g'day and i will introduce you to a few people.

Russell

Rusty Nutz · Forum Junkie

Hi All.

I havent had a read of this thread for a while. So I had a little bit of reading to do.
There are some interesting points made, from what Im guessing different competitors in different States that compete in a combination of different Off Road Events over Australia.

So Im going to try not to be bias in any way.

After having a read of all the posts. I feel it will be very hard to change the class structure to make everyone happy.
If the class structure was or has to be changed, AGAIN, I think a good amount of thought should be put into it this time as to make the effects good for everyone. So far it seems there are a lot of ideas for one certain place or one certain competition. Which Im fairly sure is no good for the sport of Off Road Racing. Unless of course you want to break Off Road Racing up into different competitions throughout Australia, Just like Circuit racing. But one of the most fantastic things about Off Road Racing is its the same over each state. So I can race my Buggy at any level in any State.
I only have NSW as an example because thats where I live and where my family races.

But for example destroying Super 1650 and Sportsman may benefit one States competition or possibly National Level competition.
But I will guarantee you it will absolutely destroy any sort of Off Road Racing we have left in NSW.
And please dont take that as a bias argument. Its nothing but an example of how one change could be good for one States level of competition and extremely bad for another. And it would work the same with National Level. What ever Class Changes people feel would boost the National Level of the sport could potentially ruin it for another level or state.

So I think that a lot more thought needs go into the changes that can be made to help the sport for a hole. Not just the part we one person are racing in. And I say that for myself as well. As I am 21 year old NSW State Level competitor that would one day, like to move up in the ranks like everyone. But like people have said before I race and compete in what I am capable of at the moment.

And I would also like to add to that from another perspective.

I class myself as a young competitor still. And I hear a lot of people say we really need to get young people involved. More young people need to race And thats true and its great. But I will say one thing.
Im young Im here Im racing in Off Road which has been my dream since I was born. And its bloody hard to keep doing it when all you do is get pounded non stop with crap that is wrong with the sport.

If you want more young people to get involved make it easy. Make it worthwhile. And stop changing for the sake of change.

I know NSW has and I would make guess that other States have as well, lost competitors to the fact that things in or sport have been changed for the sake for change.

Make the sport Off Road Racing better not worse.

Thanks,
LSC

Flagg · Regular Poster

Thanks Russell,

I hope to be there, if so I will look you up.

This topic has me really interested as I have realised it is why I am still unsure which way to go.

There seems to be a couple of areas of discussion here. The thread was started by proposing "classes going forward?". Why, probably because we all want the best system which suits the sport, the competitors, sponsors and raises interest to grow the sport.

I can only offer my position as one who wants to enter the sport but is undecided between clubman, sportsman, 1650 and performance 2wd. This is because I have read the rules carefully, spoken to many who own and run buggies and tintops and what stops me is this:

1. Too many buggy classes to choose from.

2. Sportsman is slow (clubman worse), but very appealing as the capacity limit means you are not throwing gearbox rebuilds at it every 500klms.

3. No single seat unless prolite/pro. I only just realised that oz40 - g'day (another new guy wanting to enter the sport) also suggested merging sportsman and 1650 and allowing single seat 1330cc. This is for budget reasons also - 1 less seat, harness, helmet, etc. to buy and maintain. Less weight means faster and easier on the driveline.

4. I could compete in short courses single seat but I want to compete in an aorc one day (as a club rally competitor it was a buzz lining up against possum bourne and neal bates and getting flogged - it only inspired you)

Which brings me to the next point, I totally agree that state and national classes should be aligned but as a viewer of the excellent coverage on tv this year, it looks pretty average when 2 cars line up at the start for an aorc class. That will not attract anyone, (hasn't got me to commit yet), so sometimes decisions have to be made to keep up with the evolution of the sport.

Pro-lite is an excellent example of a class that people wanted and would appear to have flocked to. But with the advent of this new class it may have thinned out the bottom half of the field. You dont need 4 buggy classes (5 if you include clubman/state class) to help people transition (if they want too) to pro class one day. The entry class for buggies has to be economical, with a reasonable turn of speed and reasonable parity. And the same at state and national level.

I suggested earlier merging the two bottom classes and allowing the opportunity to go single or two seater at the bottom end of the sport as well as the top. I know I would be looking very seriously at a single seat sportsman to run then knowing that it would be more competitve against a super 1650 carrying up to an extra 100kg and easier on the wallet.

How about you also introduce some of the clubman buggy rules designed to keep cost down?
SR 1.6.5 SUSPENSION
1. Front suspension only two front shock absorbers (one per side) may be used which may carry coilover springs. Shock absorbers with auxiliary canisters or external bypass shock absorbers are NOT permitted.
2. Rear suspension up to four rear shock absorbers may be fitted (two per side) of which two may carry coilover springs. Shock absorbers with auxiliary canisters or external bypass shock absorbers are NOT permitted.

Maybe even transmission?
SR 1.6.4 REAR AXLE/TRANSMISSION
The rear axle assembly (transaxle) must only have four forward gears.
Constant Velocity (CV) and/or universal joints shall be inboard of all rear wheel bearings.

But not the engine restrictor and not linkpin front axle/suspension type (I have changed my mind on this). It appears that it is the gearbox and suspension that are the two main areas where costs can vary enormously and the the parity between buggies. You also want the sport to advance even at entry level and a-arm cars are now the way to go.

Performance 2wd interests me a lot - I like the rules except they are a bit loose and you can really go to town and build a weapon if you wanted too. It is an easier class to get started in as there is so much choice and very little to do if you want to build yourself. I think it could be become a home for many now that big buck extreme 2wd is here to stay.

ok enough, apologies to all if I went on a bit but i think this has been annoying me for a while and stopping me making a decision. The rule change to the new systemand class names was an improvement but now some more tuning is needed. my twocents plus gst plus rudds carbon tax.

Cheers, Brett

heyu · Rehab Dropout...

Brett,

Check the entry lists for Sealake 09, Warrialda 09, Milbrodale 09, Wittitren, the number of Sportsman & Super 1650 vehicles entered in these events makes it imperative we don't mess with the system at this point in time. It would seem that the guys in these classes are very competitive and turn up in State events in good numbers,they just don't turn up at AORC rounds. Last year Jeff Thomas in a Sportsman buggy at Warialda was in the top ten shootout & even carrying 2 people looked like scaring the big engined machines.
The AORC events are contested by people who are in a position to compete for the National Championship and are able to do the traveling to achieve this. The National event courses are in remote areas & have courses with longer straights & are conducive to the bigger machines.
State events & Club ones are run on tighter shorter courses where the driving then becomes the leveler & quite often the Sportsman & Super 1650 cars feature in the outright positions..
In saying that I am not knocking the driving ability of some of our top drivers, last year after the AORC events finished Buddy Crowe bought his big beast to SORRAs last State round and was leading it until the last race

TOYOTAPOWR · In rehab

Mandating single seaters is not the answer.
Entry level into buggy classes is still the sportsmen class and from what I have seen 2 mates normally buy one together and progress from there.
It is also easier to get sponsorship in a 2 seater because you can take the sponsors for a ride as navigaters.

ARB TIPPING CHAMPION 2013

i think the classes are fine the way they are, except for one exception, i can tell the difference between a buggy (even with panels) and an extreme 2wd as can any offroad racer so tigthen up the rules to stop buggies changing to extreme 2wd, i have no problem with them having panels on in pro, BUT A BUGGY IS STILL A BUGGY EVEN WITH PANELS!!! As for the rest of the classes leave them alone and stop making us change our cars just for the sake of change
thats just my two cents

Blacky · In rehab

Why do we have to change things all the time ??????
Change for change sake ????
The goal posts move too often already, all that happens is that people are scared away from our sport because of the instability and lack of consistancy that comes from this kind of talk. People with small budgets dont need to be changing things all the time to suit a few idealists.
It reminds me of work where old people who should have retired years ago try to stay involved by bringing up useless ideas just so they have something to say. Luckily common sense does prevail most of the time.
If it aint broke - dont fix it !!!

Lost · Forum Addict

you say that class 3 cars are too slow,then if they are so slow why is it that there are cars from the supposed fast classes prolouging and finishing behind these slow cors.....maybe we should swab these cars.......... just leave the classes as they are and go build your tin top....

Wolf · Rehab Dropout...

Was i the only one who groaned when this subject came up?

Its horses for courses. NSW gets excellent numbers for sportsman and bugger all tintops some reason. WA is the opposite.

The system works!

Rusty Nutz · Forum Junkie

Well I agree with some of the points that have be made.
And Blacky, you nailed it. Absolutely agree.
And Wolf, your right. For the difference in event feilds across Aus, the system does work.

So there is no need to talk about stuffing a system that has just started to get its feet on the ground since it was last changed.

It wont solve any of your problems. Nor will it make the sport any better.
It will just piss people off AGAIN.

Oh yeah just for the record. I measured the Hip Rail on my Super 1650 last night.
And in the centre of the window opening it measures 449mm!!!!!!

CHANGE FOR THE SAKE OF CHANGE IS USLESS

Thank you,
LSC

Flagg · Regular Poster

Cool guys, obviously sportsman and 1650 are very strong in nsw. I should have read the thread more carefully to gauge the sensitivity of it first before offering any comments. Too many people getting fired up here.

Maybe there should be a moratorium on the forum for a couple of years discussing class changes.. biggrin

Cheers, Brett.

Wolf · Rehab Dropout...

Now woz.

Naa - This forum is unofficial and has nothing to do with the organisation or running of offroad racing in aus. Any info like that comes via offroadracing.com.au