New side protection rules for 2010

southern son · Forum Addict

New side protection rules for 2010

Stingray 2212 · Rehab Dropout...

I have looked at the regs & I also have many questions. Here is a link to the minutes which contain the regs. http://www.cams.com.au/en/Sport/Minutes/~/media/Files/Sport/Minutes/National/AORcom/AORCom%20Minutes%2014-15%20February%202009.ashx

southern son · Forum Addict

Thanks Stingray I can see what they mean now .Its not to hard to fix up?

procrastination · Forum Junkie

has this just been released or has it been around since february

Stingray 2212 · Rehab Dropout...

Not sure how long the minutes have been around. I spotted them early June.

procrastination · Forum Junkie

nice of them too let us know considering i just finished that part of my car

Stingray 2212 · Rehab Dropout...

I have had concerns about these rules for a while for several reasons, some things that occured over the weekend have confirmed my belief that they are not a good idea.

If you read the minutes announcing the changes you will note the heading "Following the inquiry into the fatal accident at Donald", this gives the impression that the Donald accident had something to do with a side impact. This is not true. It also talks about a "survey", but it tells us nothing about who was involved in this process. I know a person that is both a competitor & a car builder who was able to do a detailed inspection of the car involved. I also know that nobody bothered to contact him for any input.

The minutes also talk about a maximum window opening dimension. They then go on to say that dimension has not been specified yet. How can you vote on a change & then make that change compulsary when you have not been informed of the specifications that you are voting for.

We had a couple of incidents at our club race this weekend & one of them I was directly involved in. I rolled my car at a fairly low speed, it landed on it's side. My car has a fairly large side openings. The car was on the track so getting out quickly was our main concern. My son was on the "down side" got out through the windscreen opening & I got out through the side opening very easily. I have real concerns that I may not have got out so easily if the side area is made smaller.

The other incident involved a competitor hurting their back. There was no accident, he simply hurt his back. He was not able to get out of the car himself. An ambulance was called & I know they had huge difficulty getting him out. The car has reasonable size openings. If the openings were smaller they may have had to cut the car up to get him out.

I am in favor of having side impact protection but not if it in any way decreases the side opening of a car. One final point it was a recomendation by, I think the coroner, but stand corrected, that any competitor that is driving an ailing car should pull off the track immediately. Why has this not been made law?

croweater · Powerhouse Poster

I will try to address some of your concerns. Regardless what you, me or anybody else thinks resulted from the accident at Donald ( and in respect to family and friends I dont want to elaborate ) the coroner's view is the one that AORCOM have to act on and that was to do with side impact.
The survey done was not a public survey but one that was carried out by AORCOM commissioners at events in SA and Vic where as many buggies, old and new, were measured in order to compile as much data as possible in relation to a fix for side impact.
The reason why there are 2 types of diagrams in the minutes is for the access in and out of the vehicle.
You must respect that given a coroner's report to act on, AORCOM must come up with answers and not everyone will be happy.

william · Rehab Dropout...

just a quick question when will these rules be convey to the wider offroad community as i have purchase an older buggy and i'm currently prepping it with a view to be activity racing club rounds and the condo 750 and any other race i can fit in next year.

so how long will it be before these changes take effect and when will the final rules be in place cause now is the time i want to make the changes to the car before i get it repainted and ready to race. then have change and repaint next year.

Stingray 2212 · Rehab Dropout...

Bruce, let's be honest here, coroners can make recomendations only. Governments consistantly choose to ignore their recomendations. You have elected not to address why AORCom has failed to impliment the ailing vehicle recomendation.

With the greatest respect how many of the commisioners are engineers/car builders. These rules will have a huge impact on our sport, mainly for people with older cars. I can appreciate that you feel compelled to act, but I am sure the coroner did not say that this should be a closed door process. You could have & should have made this a transperent & consultative process. Why did you choose not to make this a public survey?

You have also chosen not to address how it is that you can impliment something that you do not have all of the facts in front of you. I ask you again how can you vote for this when you don't know what the window opening size is?

I agree that AORCom must come up with solutions & I would have thought the best way to achieve this would be to openly & trasparently consult the vast number of smart people involved in our sport. This may have lead to an outcome that was far more acceptable that this one. I am yet to speak to anyone that thinks these changes are a good idea & that they will have much effect when it comes to a side impact.

Just for the record, I was a friend of Red's & these changes would not have saved his life.

croweater · Powerhouse Poster

Today I thought I would test the water by trying to openly explain something on a public forum at the risk of creating a slinging match. The correct way to communicate to all racers from AORCOM is via state offroad panels who then communiate to clubs. This is a slow and sometimes unreliable system but it is the correct way and works in reverse to get your message back to AORCOM. I will however answer your latest post and then crawl back into my hole.
If I choose not to address something from your post it is most likely I dont have the facts in front of me. When the commission completed the "survey" it most definately included consultation with present car builders. I dont believe AORCOM has any right to ignore a coroner's reccommendation - that would be totally wrong.
You keep mentioning open and transparency, why? , these issues and discussions have been going on for years, at AORCOM, state level and club level. If you are not getting the info. you have to start looking closer to home. My club, Adelaide Buggy Club, voted on these changes, sent it back to the South Australian Off Road Advisory Panel. This panel then voted on these changes with delegates from all SA clubs and sent the results back to AORCOM. Did your club do the same - if not, why?
A final note for your consideration is to be aware that sometimes when AORCOM make decisions that dont make everyone happy - the alternative is lot worse! We are not out to make it hard for people - just to find a balance.
By all means PM me if you need to know more but I wont participate in a slinging match.

Stingray 2212 · Rehab Dropout...

"A slow & sometimes unreliable system", yep, that just about sums it up.

AORCom has every right to ignore the coroners recomendation & has done so by not implimenting the ailing vehicle recomendation.

Third time lucky, how can you vote on something when you dont have all the information available? The window size is critical.

"If you are not getting the info", refer to point number one. Why not use the internet it is not slow & very reliable.

I do thank you for putting your hand up. I will PM you but I would prefer to share all of the info with my fellow competitors.

peteskillarpaint · Forum Junkie

i think leave the bloody cars the way they are , why is it that as soon as some thing happens do gooders need to act on it !!!!!
eg. theres a shark attack then all the gunho idiots say we have to hutn it down and kill it ,its a rouge shark , its not the sharks fault we r in his lunch box , we all know he is there but we still get in and take the risk!!!
its the same with race cars , we all know that there is a chance we could get hurt or even worse die? but we all still put our helmets on and get into the car knowing this! and why because of the rush it gives us!!!!!!!!!

procrastination · Forum Junkie

i think the new rules suck as i now have to hack into the side of my car i just finished but.
coming from a road racing background the first time i went to an offroad event my first impression was "do they let you race these things" i was looking at things with bits hanging off and no side impact protection at all. and was shocked that noone had ever been killed.

considering there is lots of potential to hit things

sting ray
instead of slinging shit maybe you could try and go to some of these meetings and have your say

happy days

LIAbillity · Rehab Dropout...

i asked dan roger's ( wa aorc panel member )about this ,
he seened a bit surpried that we all new this ,
and said that he hasn't even seen the drawings yet ,
which surprised me as he's on the panel ,

than i pointed out to him that most of the safari car's
didn't have 450mm from there floor to the hip rail ,
and they dont have nurf bar's like our buggy's have !!!!

bug308 · Forum Junkie

peteskillarpaint wrote:

i think leave the bloody cars the way they are , why is it that as soon as some thing happens do gooders need to act on it !!!!!
eg. theres a shark attack then all the gunho idiots say we have to hutn it down and kill it ,its a rouge shark , its not the sharks fault we r in his lunch box , we all know he is there but we still get in and take the risk!!!
its the same with race cars , we all know that there is a chance we could get hurt or even worse die? but we all still put our helmets on and get into the car knowing this! and why because of the rush it gives us!!!!!!!!!

We still need to be looking at improving safety in our sport

Stingray 2212 · Rehab Dropout...

I just checked the minutes again & it says that Dan was present. So now we have a case of AORCom voting on these changes without knowing the window size opening & not having the diagrams present, but passing the changes anyway.

peteskillarpaint · Forum Junkie

bug308 wrote:

peteskillarpaint wrote:

i think leave the bloody cars the way they are , why is it that as soon as some thing happens do gooders need to act on it !!!!!
eg. theres a shark attack then all the gunho idiots say we have to hutn it down and kill it ,its a rouge shark , its not the sharks fault we r in his lunch box , we all know he is there but we still get in and take the risk!!!
its the same with race cars , we all know that there is a chance we could get hurt or even worse die? but we all still put our helmets on and get into the car knowing this! and why because of the rush it gives us!!!!!!!!!

We still need to be looking at improving safety in our sport

no we dont! its fine just the way it is!!

Trekka273 · sponsor

We should always be looking at sensible ways to improve safety. The most dangerous thing that any form of motorsport can do is to get complacent and not strive to improve safety. Yes, it must be done sensibly and within the boundaries of cost, etc, but what would it take to make those people not wanting any safety improvements want to improve safety? No matter what the safety levels, there will always be a chance of injury or worse, as that is motor racing. But that shouldn't mean that we don't try to make it as safe as is sensibly possilbe.

Webmaster · Rehab Dropout...

ok guys i wont edit anything that is on this post but i would like to try and keep this from getting in to a sling match or a blame game or any other sort of match. AORCom have made a decision as can be seen in the minutes posted above. this thread is about the affect and trying to find information about the change. could we try and get some on from aorcom to please post an informed post about the changes with as much detail as possible and also the specs required and when this will take affect.

i can see there are a few other issuse here but i think they should be taken up in another place and not here.

i hope you guys understand as i will edit any further posts that are not to do directly with the new rules.

southern son · Forum Addict

I have spoken with members of AORCom about the new rules which in my understanding apply 01 jan 2010 . I have made the changes to my car and it took me
one weekend and about 3-4 meters of tube . The changes I have made I was told by
members of AORCom are ok . I will put some photos up if there is intrest.

peteskillarpaint · Forum Junkie

ok
if i change my car to meet new rules , and go out and race and still get hurt with the so called safer upgrades what was the point of doing it?

i feel that the new rule should only appliy to new cars being built today
and not the older cars being raced ,
but to older cars being raced should be capped to slower classes for safety reasons ,
and if u want to race your older car in a faster class then u need to up grade your older car to meet the saftey standards!!

i up graded my older cars rollcage not because i had to ,but because i wanted to, because it made me!!!! feel safer!!!
i allready have two hip rails in my car 1 at about 400mm and 1 at 550mm and have been racing for a couple of years like that
i also have 2 main hoops! so my car is allready safer than others out there
and thru my choice , not because i had to i also only drive to my abilities and not over my abilities , and this is also at my choice not because im told to , its all about using your head and commonsense ,
people who drive there cars thinking there safe because they meet so called safer standards are kidding them selfs!!! , if your ment to get hurt or worse die then its ment to be!!! and no amout of safety to going to prevent this from happening its out of our hands !!!
sure u can set what u think is higher saftey standards but at the end of the day its still not going to stop people getting hurt!!!!
accidents happen thats why we call then accidents!!! we all make mistakes!! bad calls/judgments , thats life , and no amout of sftey can stop this from happening!!

but where do you draw the line to saftey , whats next airbags in buggies !!
on board fire bombs wich are know not to work 100% of the time ,

southern son · Forum Addict

So you made changes to the frame of your buggy becouse you thought it was a good Idea but if AORCom says everyone must do it thats a bad Idea ??? confuse

peteskillarpaint · Forum Junkie

southern son wrote:

So you made changes to the frame of your buggy becouse you thought it was a good Idea but if AORCom says everyone must do it thats a bad Idea ???

yes i do think there wrong!!
puck me!!! they can not even get the harness problem sorted out !!and now they want to change major structure to cars, how about fixing the other isuse first !!!,do u know that when cams did harness testing that no one from off road sent in any SFI OLD BELTS FOR THEM TO TEST AND CHANGE THE LIFE SPAN FROM 2 YEARS TO 5? I DID MY OWN INQUIRY ABOUT HARNESSES AND FOUND THIS OUT , SHITE IF I HAD KNOWN THAT CAMS WHERE TESTING OLD BELTS I HAVE SHITE LOADS THEY COULD OF HAD TO DO SO BUT NO ONE TOLD ME !

anyway because they are basing it on new cars speeds and old cars with way to big motors in them to be safe ,
but a old car with a 4cly 2lt non turbo engine its a safe car the way it is ,thats is my point dont change the rules just police them better!!!
as to my car theres no way i would put a 6lt v8 or 3.5lt turbo in it because its a old car and i would concider it unsafe to do so !
but some idiots do put to bigger motors in there old light cars and take that risk but that is stupid , with todays much stronger and lighter steels you can build a light but very strong and fast car than u could ever do with an old one! so why would u risk old over new?
all im saying is dont change the rules for old and new cars as a whole, change the rules to suit the class and the budget racers
if u want to run an old car because thats all u can afford and just in it for fun they should be left allone to do so , and if you want to spend to much money and be at the pointy end then do so with the saftey up grades ,

but about my car, the car before i bought it!! had race many years and won many races in its original state wich was all ok and safe to race ,
but i thought it needed improvement from my passed experience in race car crashes and i have had a lot of them over the years

procrastination · Forum Junkie

so is it official if not when will it be official i heard 5th of sept
to modify?????????????????? or
not to modify?????????????????

Stingray 2212 · Rehab Dropout...

Anyone that modifies their car at the moment should consider the fact that they may have to do it all again once the minimum window dimensions are put forward.

Renegade · Forum Addict

Stingray 2212 wrote:

We had a couple of incidents at our club race this weekend & one of them I was directly involved in. I rolled my car at a fairly low speed, it landed on it's side. My car has a fairly large side openings. The car was on the track so getting out quickly was our main concern. My son was on the "down side" got out through the windscreen opening & I got out through the side opening very easily. I have real concerns that I may not have got out so easily if the side area is made smaller.

The other incident involved a competitor hurting their back. There was no accident, he simply hurt his back. He was not able to get out of the car himself. An ambulance was called & I know they had huge difficulty getting him out. The car has reasonable size openings. If the openings were smaller they may have had to cut the car up to get him out.

Being present at the particular accident, the window was as small as i'd expect from the new regulations. Car design and not wanting to unduly inflict pain on the person were the main areas of concern. It would have been exactly the same effort required to get the patient out of any car at that particular race.

It should be noted that we need to take a proactive approach to safety. I doubt anyone wants to add expense to racing for the sake of it, but a good look at some of the older cars out there has me believing that if changes aren't made to the strength of some of these older cars then more accidents of a lethal nature are going to occur as the disparity in car speed / design is such that reassessment is required. Just have a look one day at how well a Jimco nudge bar fits in through the side opening of a 1982 Rivmasta and their relative heights and you'll see.

Stingray 2212 · Rehab Dropout...

I agree with your concerns regarding the Jimco nudge bars. Given that it is them that are causing the problem, the only fair & reasonable thing to do would be to insist on a maximum height for a front bar & make them the ones that have to alter their cars.

Short of me putting another side bar somewhere near my ear, no amount of modification will protect me from a nudje bar at there current heights.

jump1 · Rehab Dropout...

can i ask if my hip rail is at 450mm now does this mean i have to make the change?? or is for cars that are not 450mm

-- Edited by jump1 on Wednesday 12th of August 2009 10:20:54 AM

bug308 · Forum Junkie

southern son wrote:

I have spoken with members of AORCom about the new rules which in my understanding apply 01 jan 2010 . I have made the changes to my car and it took me
one weekend and about 3-4 meters of tube . The changes I have made I was told by
members of AORCom are ok . I will put some photos up if there is intrest.

some photos would be good southern son