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croweater


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RE: New side protection rules for 2010
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I believe 99% of readers would like to get an understanding of this new rule, so I will endevour to explain it in simply terms, not from minutes but just an overview. The other 1% who are just AORCOM bashing and trying to twist everything that is said into an arguement and making accusations with no understanding of what goes on, it is time to FO and not spoil it for everyone else. Put simply, if you ask questions you will get answers, abuse and accuse you will get nothing!
In response to a coroners report, commissioners were asked to look into ideas of improving the side impact protection on buggies ( generally olders style buggies ). They took it back to state panels etc. and the idea was raised to see about the introduction of higher hip rail. Commissioners were then asked to partake in a survey of measuring as many buggies as possible ( old and new ) and provide measurements of the height of existing hip rail, the hip rail to roof measurement and the rollbar forward to roof support bar measurement. They were to record car# and brand ( if possible ) and have a general look about how hard it would be to install a 2nd hip rail ( if needed ) at 450mm high.
Maybe around 100 cars were measured and the general outcome was that modern cars mostly had a hiprail of 450mm or greater and the older cars were 300mm to 360mm. It was also noted that none of the cars with low hip rails measured appeared to be overly hard to fix. It was also noted that roof heights and lengths varied greatly and the idea of having a minimum window opening size would be impossible to implement but a mandatory roof support bar for all size roofs was important. Access in and out of the vehicle was also noted as a concern. At least 2 current chassis builders were also consulted.
So, the end result, put simply, is - if your buggy has a hiprail lower than 450mm you will need to install a 2nd hiprail at the required height, it can have a bend or bends in it for elbow or access room and must be supported by at least 1 extra bar (probably to a triangle point on your existing hip rail or to the chassis rail ). If by doing this you have a problem with cabin access, you have the other option (option 1 ) of building a more complex structure on the exterior of your vehicle. Either option will require a roof support bar ( most buggies have them anyway ). Implementation date 1 Jan 2010.

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Stingray 2212


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Can you please clarify, despite what the minutes say it is now the view of AORCom that there will be no minimum window size.

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croweater


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What the minutes say is under a heading 'The following issues have arisen in consultation:' which reffered to 5 or 6 points that had come from various people / panels for further discussion, one of which is your point in question, that had to be discussed and considered before a motion was put forward. There is no minimum window size for reasons I explained earlier.

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Stingray 2212


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Can you please confirm, the diagram in option 2 clearly shows that the new hip rail must be attached to the bottom rail not the existing hip rail. You say that it can be mounted to your existing hip rail, is that the case?



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croweater


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What we are looking at is minutes only and the diagram shows optional bends and only i attachment method. My understanding is that it can be attached to the existing hip rail. Will tidy up at Sept. meeting

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Stingray 2212


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Would it be possible to have an official statement or the actual minutes with all the information on this subject posted on this site ASAP after the meeting. There are people wishing to undertake these changes now & the usual waiting time for minutes will hamper them. 

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LIAbillity


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where is the measurement taken from ?
in line with the seats ,
and is it from the chassis rail center to hip rail center ,


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croweater


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This matter has arisen at SA state panel as well and will be addressed a the Sept meeting but the intention will be minimum "450mm from bottom of chassis rail to
top of existing/new upper side bar, measured vertically". Will aim to release something official ASAP after meeting.

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jump1


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so i guessing i need to add in a second hiprail as mine is 440mm. ok if thats what i need to do but would like to make sure what all the options are before i do it so any one that as pic post them up

Thanks

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Stingray 2212


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croweater wrote:

 If you are not getting the info. you have to start looking closer to home. My club, Adelaide Buggy Club, voted on these changes, sent it back to the South Australian Off Road Advisory Panel. This panel then voted on these changes with delegates from all SA clubs and sent the results back to AORCOM. Did your club do the same - if not, why?


At our club meeting last week I checked with the president if I had missed this. He said that the changes had not been brought to the club to be voted on. The state panel delegate also said that he knew nothing about it either. I would be interested to know if any club, other than the Adelaide Buggy Club, had voted on these changes or knew that they were proposed.
   

 



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scooter


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Will it be legal to fit a new hip rail 450 above my floor bar and leave the old hip rail where it is ( 425 above the floor ) and have they come up with the window opening dimension yet

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Stingray 2212


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Hey Scooter, I would wait until after the AORCom meeting. They are saying that there is NO minimum window dimensions.

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LIAbillity


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any news on the new ruling yet ?

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were we're goin we dont need roads.

it's not the speed of life that scares me,
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Tassie Devil


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The Side Intrusion Requirements have been approved by AORCom and your state commissioners will ensure that this information is advised via your State Panel to the clubs and to the individual members. These requirements will be implemented as of January 1st 2010. If you want immediate access to the wording of the ruling and the diagrams, etc, that will appear in the 2010 CAMS Manual, then speak directly to your states AORCom commissioner.

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william


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can i ask this quick question

these new rules that are going to be implemented 1st january 2010 does that mean if the buggy does not completely by this date it won't be racing until it is modify to suit the new regulations.

as we are in September now so that is four months till the new rules come in also remember that there is still racing this year so not everyone is going to have the time or cash to race and change there cars to suit the new rules.

and about the new rules are they any where on the net yet as it would be magic if the system worked as you have said but it require meetings to filter throught to member then people have to have time to send out minutes to the meeting etc.

i think it would be easier for there to be an official copy of the rules to be posted on the major forums and offroad websites in Australia as it will filter through a lot quicker.

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lia off road


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is this how we get rid off all the old carsfurious

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Stingray 2212


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lia off road wrote:

is this how we get rid off all the old carsfurious


No, this is only stage one. The next stage is compulsary frame inspections. That will get rid of all those no hoper competitors who dont drive fancy new cars.

 



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260


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Stingray 2212 wrote:

 all those no hoper competitors who dont drive fancy new cars.

 


OUCH!     sarcasm? I certainly hope so.  

 



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southern son


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William is spot on post the new rules hear and now so we can all get to work and ready for 2010...

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william


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don't start about this is the end of old cars i just wanted the aorcom. to put the information forward now rather then later as the year is almost over and there time frame doesn't leave people much time to act as we don't have the infomation yet.

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Tassie Devil


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Okay, it all has to go through the process at CAMS and as we know nothing works really quick in the CAMS structure, so it will be a couple of weeks before we all see the official CAMS Bulletin, but as i said, if you are really, really, desperate to see something straight away then talk directly to your states commissioner and they will be happy to explain it all.

The intention was always that this would be introduced for 2010, it has just taken a little bit more time to bed it down than desired, but we all knew it was coming and at the end of the day if you actually go and assess all the cars at any off road event around the country it is not a massive amount of vehicles that need to make changes and if they do it is a relatively simple job.

Many have been pro-active and consulted directly with AORCom and have already made the changes.

Unfortunately, there has been a fair bit of mis-information bandied around on here at times by people with their own agendas and this whole task should not be overly difficult for those that need to make the changes.

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Wolf


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Tassie Devil wrote:
...

Unfortunately, there has been a fair bit of mis-information bandied around on here at times by people with their own agendas ...

Understatement of the year that. Which is why we maintain that this is not an official site.  When in doubt, check with the organisations that govern our sport and get facts, not opinions or conjecture!

 



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Tassie Devil


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I have been informed that the official CAMS Bulletin for this should be released this Thursday (1st October)

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Tassie Devil


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Tassie Devil wrote:

I have been informed that the official CAMS Bulletin for this should be released this Thursday (1st October)


The CAMS Bulletin can be viewed on this link.

http://www.cams.com.au/Sport/~/media/Files/Sport/Bulletins/B09-087%20Off%20Road%20General%20requirements%20-%202010%20Side%20Intrusion%20Requirements.ashx

 



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Elaine Nikiforoff


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The CAMS Bulletin for Side Protection was released today, 2nd October 2009. Go to CAMS website under SPORT and click on Bulletins. It is at the top of the list.

Elaine Nikiforoff

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Elaine
Stingray 2212


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A couple of issues. There is nothing about the new compulsary roof support bar in the bulletin, does this mean that it is not compulsary or do you refer to the old rules for specifications? If you fit the straight new hip rail, the diagram shows it only attached at the front & rear, there is no actual attachment to the existing rail, is this diagram correct?



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scooter


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the new rule has made life difficult for people with cars with a bend in the hip rail in the cabin area, my car is a copy of an old keith poole scorpion and hip rail flares out from the roll hoop to a bend at about where my elbows are when I'm sitting in the car and then carries on in a straight line down to the front of the car. My car can very easily made to meets the new reg by the addition of a piece of tube with a bend in it that mirrors the existing hip rail but this does not meet the new reg which state that the tube added must be a straight and join the roll hoop to the front roll cage upright his would just not work in my case. But cams in there infinite wisdom will now allow me to bolt what looks like a set of kids monkey bars to the side of the car and call that side impact protection what are they thinking.by the way my old hip rail is 425 mm from the floor the story of my life always 1 inch to short

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CJ_DT


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Scooter you may be alright, they show the measurement being from the bottom of the botom tube to the top of the top tube (not centre to centre). It also doesn take into accont that some of the newer cars have seats 200 odd mmm off the floor.

This is yet another example of people making a rule without consulting engineers (or anyone with half an engineeing idea), depending on the builders they asked, its just people blatantly copying american designs (and generally overbuilt/strucutre in un-necessary places).

By having a bend outwards it makes it much harder to be pushed in in an impact. A straight bar can be hit and pushed straight in, a bent bar (like the one in scorpions/all old cars) has to get longer as it straightens, so it would need to bend the main hoops of the car to come into the cab.

How are they implementing this in the sedan/baja classes. They cant realy have the structure on the outside because the door needs to open, and because the cage is inside the car they will need the bend for elbow room.

And in reality its sedan car thats likely to get an impact with the biggest speed diffeence/force.


Do the people making these rules have any engineering background? Do CAMS/the panel consult an engineer, perhaps go to one pay few bucks and have and FEA test done on their designs? If not the people who are making the rules perhaps shouldnt be.

(Scooter I am in the same boat as you)

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CJ_DT


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PS; the design where it attaches to the side, then places large side load into the middle of some fairly major unsupported tubes (the roll cage) in the event of a farly small impact, the main hoop could be deformed. There is a chance that some cars with the added on design will be essentially written off in a fairly gentle roll as this structure will punch into the middleof the hoop, an area with no support.

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Stingray 2212


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As I understand it, the new rules apply to buggies only.

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