Pro Class Speed

Stingray 2212 · Rehab Dropout...

Pro Class Speed

Maurie Fuller · Forum Junkie

The Bridgestone at Kempsey had an average speed of around 48 km per hour if my memory serves me correctly. (We had to get all the cars away in an hour before the first car got back)
So it must be the tracks they are given to race on.
Griffith was fast compared to the Bridgestone, but will be slow compared to the other
national tracks. The good guys will be faster on any track I guess.

Trekka273 · sponsor

The only way to slow them down is to make the tracks tighter/rougher, but then that also has a big effect on the smaller capacity classes as well, and even more so on the older cars that are still competing (beam cars, etc). When you look at the suspension on the latest cars, they are able to soak up a lot of the stuff at quite a high speed, whereas in years gone by, they would have had to slow significantly to go over those same areas. I guess you could always try to just have tighter tracks, rather then rougher, as that wouldn't effect the older cars so much, but it may also be a lot less enjoyable for everyone to race.

delete · In rehab

Trekka273 wrote:

The only way to slow them down is to make the tracks tighter/rougher, but then that also has a big effect on the smaller capacity classes as well, and even more so on the older cars that are still competing (beam cars, etc). When you look at the suspension on the latest cars, they are able to soak up a lot of the stuff at quite a high speed, whereas in years gone by, they would have had to slow significantly to go over those same areas. I guess you could always try to just have tighter tracks, rather then rougher, as that wouldn't effect the older cars so much, but it may also be a lot less enjoyable for everyone to race.

Rougher would be better for the a-arm cars but tighter would even the field out a bit and slow down the pace also driver talent not necessarily kilowatts would be more important. Any moron can point a car in a straight line and shoot. It takes alot more talent to do this, brake and go round corners.

jones off road · Rehab Dropout...

Dont forget how buggies have advanced since Kempsey etc, what may have been 48k/h, would definately be higher now.
How do you slow down some tracks? I know we (the club) want to slow down griffith (current average about 90k/h), but the landscape does,nt really allow it.
Most of the tracks have been a similar layout for ever, its the cars that are faster!
Donald have tried to slow them, but again, the landscape wont allow it.
Obviously we definately dont need to raise the current engine capacities.....maybe we should lower them?
Either that, our put out 'witches hats' to weave through?

scooter · Forum Addict

Even way back when the kempsey race was the big event class one buggies where extremely fast cars ie feather weight rivmasters fitted with turbo nissans toyota's & cosworth's porsche engines fitted to hornets some of these cars could do 200 kph + back then. i believe the biggest differents in the modern car is the fact that the new a arm cars actually handle well they turn well they stop extremely well they ride the rough well enough that the driver is not knocked around and is able to perform for longer in to the race before fatiue sets in. But the big thing the new cars have going for them is safety they are built with chromoly tubing and lots of it they are not rediculusly light ,seats are better as is personal protective equipment. before we going changing tracks to slow them down have a think what the changes will do to the lower class cars if you make it more difficult for the new big cars you may well make it to difficult for the budet racer. yes they are fast but not just in a straight line as the knockers would have people think, they are fast everywhere and are great to watch and draw the crowds that cant be a bad thing can it ??????????

Rusty Nutz · Forum Junkie

Dusteater wrote:
Rougher would be better for the a-arm cars but tighter would even the field out a bit and slow down the pace also driver talent not necessarily kilowatts would be more important. Any moron can point a car in a straight line and shoot. It takes alot more talent to do this, brake and go round corners.

I completely agree Dusteater. If the speed of the cars is the issue. The leave the cars alone and modify the tracks.

If you give the smaller capacity cars a big enough and flat enough straight they will get to the scary speeds too.

If there is a straight that is to quick put a big S in the middle of it.
If drivers cant negotiate the speed of there own vehicle themselves they shouldn't be driving.
Its pretty simple. If I feel Im going to quick for the piece of track Im racing on... I lift off the throttle. When I feel I can go quicker I put the foot back down.

We re not racing slot cars.

But if drivers of Off Road Race Cars need a helping hand to figure that out then modify the track so they have to slow down No matter what monster of a car there driving.

Blacky · In rehab

scooter wrote:

Even way back when the Kempsey race was the big event class one buggies where extremely fast cars ie feather weight Rivmasters fitted with turbo Nissans Toyota's & Cosworth's. Porsche engines fitted to hornets some of these cars could do 200 kph + back then. i believe the biggest difference in the modern car is the fact that the new a arm cars actually handle well they turn well they stop extremely well they ride the rough well enough that the driver is not knocked around and is able to perform for longer in to the race before fatigue sets in. But the big thing the new cars have going for them is safety they are built with chromoly tubing and lots of it they are not ridiculously light ,seats are better as is personal protective equipment. before we going changing tracks to slow them down have a think what the changes will do to the lower class cars if you make it more difficult for the new big cars you may well make it to difficult for the budget racer. yes they are fast but not just in a straight line as the knockers would have people think, they are fast everywhere and are great to watch and draw the crowds that cant be a bad thing can it ??????????

Browny (Scooter) has some good points there.

How dangerous is our sport really ? There are safer sports - lawn bowls - and more dangerous sports - motocross. Having ridden dirt bikes for a long time, I have seen a lot more and a lot worse injuries than in off road but there is never any talk of limiting bike speeds. The bike tracks are the main speed limiter. We choose off road because its fun and an adrenalin rush. The danger adds to the adrenalin. Almost everyone who is involved in our sport approaches it in a professional manner and the quality of machinery and in particular safety equipment and enforced regulations has improved greatly over the years.

Having been to Finke numerous times, I think that the stupidity of some spectators camping close to (almost on) the track, on outside of corners, drunk means that they are far more at risk than any sober driver in a safe buggy/truck. No-one was injured in the crashes/rollovers at Finke this year and the speeds were very high.

Maybe track marking needs to be upgraded and set further back from the dangers to allow for more braking room and more time allowed for recon before the race so drivers can familiarise themselves better with the track.

Dont strangle a rapidly developing sport. So many people have put so much time, effort and money into the sport to make it what it is today the last thing we want to do is undo all the good work that they have done.

We need to be responsible for our own actions, enjoy what we do and live with the risk otherwise we all may as well be wrapped in cotton wool and sit around waiting to die.

Rusty Nutz · Forum Junkie

Absolutely agree with you blacky... 100%
Well Said.

TOYOTAPOWR · In rehab

I agree it aint broke and doesn't need fixing but if you really want to slow them down the simplest way at this point in time is to make everyone run 98 unleaded and ban racing fuel and straight away boost levels will be reduced.

-- Edited by TOYOTAPOWR on Thursday 6th of August 2009 03:36:03 PM

delete · In rehab

TOYOTAPOWR wrote:

I agree it aint broke and doesn't need fixing but if you really want to slow them down the simplest way at this point in time is to make everyone run 98 unleaded and ban racing fuel and straight away boost levels will be reduced.

-- Edited by TOYOTAPOWR on Thursday 6th of August 2009 03:36:03 PM

Great idea but is it difficult to police?

Renegade · Forum Addict

Dusteater wrote:

TOYOTAPOWR wrote:

I agree it aint broke and doesn't need fixing but if you really want to slow them down the simplest way at this point in time is to make everyone run 98 unleaded and ban racing fuel and straight away boost levels will be reduced.

-- Edited by TOYOTAPOWR on Thursday 6th of August 2009 03:36:03 PM

Great idea but is it difficult to police?

Not too difficult to police and the scrutineers have been doing it for a while.

I believe the problem is a fuel manufacturer who threatened legal action if people weren't allowed to use their "commercially available fuel".

scooter · Forum Addict

Do you really think the well funded teams wont find a way of going faster no matter what rules are thrown at them. the do gooders that are pushing the speed reductions are just pissed off they can not afford to go that fast.

delete · In rehab

scooter wrote:

Do you really think the well funded teams wont find a way of going faster no matter what rules are thrown at them. the do gooders that are pushing the speed reductions are just pissed off they can not afford to go that fast.

Scooter, how you can write an obvious truth and a load of claptrap in 2 sentences is nothing short of amazing.
Well funded teams will always find a way through engine development to try to get back lost horsepower. Thats the nature of motor sport, but that bit about pissed off do gooders has got to be one of the greatest "head up your bum" statements i've read. Congratulations. Now go back and give it more than 60 seconds thought.

Scott you've been around long enough to know better.

-- Edited by Dusteater on Friday 7th of August 2009 11:27:39 AM

Trekka273 · sponsor

I don't think we necessarily need to slow the cars down, however, I don't think that we should be looking at things such as changing capacity, etc which would allow the cars to go quicker just by installing a bigger engine.

Motor sport will always develop. When i first started racing Mark Burrows was just finishing uop in his Trekka, and when I first saw his Cougar, and how well it handled and the speed of it, I could believe it could go so fast. He has now gone on to the Jimco and of course we all know how good those cars, and their like, are. That is just motorsport, there is always development. No matter what rules are put in place, there will always be ways found to push the cars faster and harder.

And to everyone that can afford to race one of the top running cars, well done!! They earn it, they can spend it however they like, and all power to them. There will always be room for all levels of competitors, from the Pro Class to the Sportsman, Super 1650's, etc.

tumbleweed · Forum Junkie

We dont have many crashes at high speed, if we did the notion of safety will change. Putting obstacles in the middle of a straight will potentially create more crashes. We need to locate the obstacles (or 'S' bends) before they get to top speeds. If there are straights that do have top speed runs then some consideration needs to be taken for existing obstacles. A high speed run with large trees 3 feet off the track has a much higher potential for danger than a paddock run. The fast guys generally have more on the line at the pointy end and will run the same speed through the trees as in the paddock, but the slower guys have less on the line and will (mostly) back off. We all know those spots on all tracks where we think 'hly crp lets not lose it here' and its those spots that we should be looking at.

Stingray 2212 · Rehab Dropout...

If we think cars are going too fast there is only one effective way to slow them down. That is to have a maximum tyre size of 33 inches, & make it compulsary that it be a production tyre as opposed to "specials". A 33 inch tyre simply won't put 700 hp to the ground, the fact that is a production tyre means that you can't run off the track & expect not to get punctures.

It would take a much different driving style & probably different cars to what we have now, but it will slow them down.

delete · In rehab

Stingray 2212 wrote:

If we think cars are going too fast there is only one effective way to slow them down. That is to have a maximum tyre size of 33 inches, & make it compulsary that it be a production tyre as opposed to "specials". A 33 inch tyre simply won't put 700 hp to the ground, the fact that is a production tyre means that you can't run off the track & expect not to get punctures.

It would take a much different driving style & probably different cars to what we have now, but it will slow them down.

This has alot of merit

scooter · Forum Addict

wow dusteater I'm wounded just voicing an opinion

In rehab

Traditionally we the smaller class folk do spend less on our cars & I suppose our top speed increases with time at a slower rate, This doesn't bother me but it might mean that there is less room for error/ pit repairs at major races to stay within the late times. If the Pro class cars get so fast maybe late time rules might need to be adjusted for the slower cars to be classed as finnishing in their normal times.

peteskillarpaint · Forum Junkie

260 wrote:

Traditionally we the smaller class folk do spend less on our cars & I suppose our top speed increases with time at a slower rate, This doesn't bother me but it might mean that there is less room for error/ pit repairs at major races to stay within the late times. If the Pro class cars get so fast maybe late time rules might need to be adjusted for the slower cars to be classed as finnishing in their normal times.

good repliy i agree we slower budget cars get a raw deal most of the time !if its not your car is old its your car is slow ,
and when r people going to realize its not speed that kills people,
its people that kill people! driver error at the end of the day we all puck up and crash we all make mistakes , we all know about the risks involved that is why we race !!!!!
at the end of the day we r all diying we r born to die and some sooner than others thats just the way it is! its not nice but thats the facts ! it dosent mater what u do and how safe u try and make it ,if your times up there isnt anything u can do about!

Rusty Nutz · Forum Junkie

Correct....

There is one thing in any race car that... You cant scruitneer... You cant change...You cant put some sort of safty factor on... Or a rule for.

And thats the nut behind the wheel.
It doesnt matter what car it is. A Club Level car, a State Level car, or a National Car.

I dont understand how having 33 inch tires instead of 35 inch or pump fuel instead of race fuel is going to stop me from crashing, rolling 5 times, hitting a tree and hopefully being alive.

It comes down to the driver of the CAR...

How fast to Fomula One cars go???????

What is the problem???

Mabye me should all run wiper sniper motors so we cant do dangerous speeds.

I feel that there needs to be no changes. No Rules. No nothing.
Leave the damn sport alone. Get in your race cars and drive as fast as you can.

And if there is a problem with the speed of Off Road Racing than go play tiddly winks.
Thats a slower sport.

peteskillarpaint · Forum Junkie

Rusty Nutz wrote:

Correct....

There is one thing in any race car that... You cant scruitneer... You cant change...You cant put some sort of safty factor on... Or a rule for.

And thats the nut behind the wheel.
It doesnt matter what car it is. A Club Level car, a State Level car, or a National Car.

I dont understand how having 33 inch tires instead of 35 inch or pump fuel instead of race fuel is going to stop me from crashing, rolling 5 times, hitting a tree and hopefully being alive.

It comes down to the driver of the CAR...

How fast to Fomula One cars go???????

What is the problem???

Mabye me should all run wiper sniper motors so we cant do dangerous speeds.

I feel that there needs to be no changes. No Rules. No nothing.
Leave the damn sport alone. Get in your race cars and drive as fast as you can.

And if there is a problem with the speed of Off Road Racing than go play tiddly winks.
Thats a slower sport.

here here!!!! well said!!!!!!!

Blacky · In rehab

"Race" is defined in the dictionary as "a contest of speed". Off Road "Racing" is what we do.
To win, 1st we need to finish and 2nd we need to be the fastest.

I assume all the negative people who want to slow the buggies down wouldn't dare go near a public road or drive a car on one as that is the most dangerous thing most people will ever do in their lives. Far more dangerous than competing in or watching an off road race.

Lets end this depressing topic before it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy and we all suffer from it.

delete · In rehab

Rusty Nutz wrote:

Correct....

There is one thing in any race car that... You cant scruitneer... You cant change...You cant put some sort of safty factor on... Or a rule for.

And thats the nut behind the wheel.
It doesnt matter what car it is. A Club Level car, a State Level car, or a National Car.

I dont understand how having 33 inch tires instead of 35 inch or pump fuel instead of race fuel is going to stop me from crashing, rolling 5 times, hitting a tree and hopefully being alive.

It comes down to the driver of the CAR...

How fast to Fomula One cars go???????

What is the problem???

Mabye me should all run wiper sniper motors so we cant do dangerous speeds.

I feel that there needs to be no changes. No Rules. No nothing.
Leave the damn sport alone. Get in your race cars and drive as fast as you can.

And if there is a problem with the speed of Off Road Racing than go play tiddly winks.
Thats a slower sport.

Running on 98RON pump gas would put a cap on engine horsepower and limiting to 33inch tyres would have an effect on outright top speed meaning winning is more about driver skill and car preparation. This may not stop you from rolling 5 times and hitting a tree but hopefully with a lower terminal speed your chance of serious injury is lower.
Formula one cars are obviously very quick but remember you cant race Formula one cars on a Level 3 license, you need an FIA Super License and to get one of these you need to progress successfully through lower, slower levels of motor sport.
I wonder if some of you would be so gung ho if you were lying in a hospital bed, quadraplegic and unable to work to support your family for the rest of your life, let alone ever drive or race a car again.
Off Road Racing is a misnomer. A race in fact is a competition between cars and drivers over a set closed course (race track) with a mass start and the winner is first past the flag. Off road racing is in fact more like rallying as we both traverse a dirt course and compete against the clock. So to be more correct it should be Off Road Rallying, but that doesnt sound quite so spectacular. I guess many years ago when the sport was just getting going, the name Off Road Racing had a better ring to it. Racing, in the traditional sense of the word, is not what we do.
I do drive a car on public roads but not on an unsealed public road at 200kmh with traffic coming the other way and I dont wish to see off road race cars all running on whipper snipper motors but I feel if some upper limits are not put in place the end result will be like Formula 1 in the 1950s, 60s where your chances of dying was very high and several drivers were killed every year. This would not be an acceptable outcome. We need to be seen as responsible Off Road competitors and administrators not gung ho gladiators. Remember the greatest hike in costs at an administration level has been insurance and more potential serious injuries or deaths will only skyrocket insurance costs which will have to be paid by all competitors, the well heeled and the budget racer. Think!

-- Edited by Dusteater on Monday 10th of August 2009 12:17:33 PM

-- Edited by Dusteater on Monday 10th of August 2009 12:19:38 PM

peteskillarpaint · Forum Junkie

Dusteater wrote:

Rusty Nutz wrote:

Correct....

There is one thing in any race car that... You cant scruitneer... You cant change...You cant put some sort of safty factor on... Or a rule for.

And thats the nut behind the wheel.
It doesnt matter what car it is. A Club Level car, a State Level car, or a National Car.

I dont understand how having 33 inch tires instead of 35 inch or pump fuel instead of race fuel is going to stop me from crashing, rolling 5 times, hitting a tree and hopefully being alive.

It comes down to the driver of the CAR...

How fast to Fomula One cars go???????

What is the problem???

Mabye me should all run wiper sniper motors so we cant do dangerous speeds.

I feel that there needs to be no changes. No Rules. No nothing.
Leave the damn sport alone. Get in your race cars and drive as fast as you can.

And if there is a problem with the speed of Off Road Racing than go play tiddly winks.
Thats a slower sport.

Running on 98RON pump gas would put a cap on engine horsepower and limiting to 33inch tyres would have an effect on outright top speed meaning winning is more about driver skill and car preparation. This may not stop you from rolling 5 times and hitting a tree but hopefully with a lower terminal speed your chance of serious injury is lower.
Formula one cars are obviously very quick but remember you cant race Formula one cars on a Level 3 license, you need an FIA Super License and to get one of these you need to progress successfully through lower, slower levels of motor sport.
I wonder if some of you would be so gung ho if you were lying in a hospital bed, quadraplegic and unable to work to support your family for the rest of your life, let alone ever drive or race a car again.
Off Road Racing is a misnomer. A race in fact is a competition between cars and drivers over a set closed course (race track) with a mass start and the winner is first past the flag. Off road racing is in fact more like rallying as we both traverse a dirt course and compete against the clock. So to be more correct it should be Off Road Rallying, but that doesnt sound quite so spectacular. I guess many years ago when the sport was just getting going, the name Off Road Racing had a better ring to it. Racing, in the traditional sense of the word, is not what we do.
I do drive a car on public roads but not on an unsealed public road at 200kmh with traffic coming the other way and I dont wish to see off road race cars all running on whipper snipper motors but I feel if some upper limits are not put in place the end result will be like Formula 1 in the 1950s, 60s where your chances of dying was very high and several drivers were killed every year. This would not be an acceptable outcome. We need to be seen as responsible Off Road competitors and administrators not gung ho gladiators. Remember the greatest hike in costs at an administration level has been insurance and more potential serious injuries or deaths will only skyrocket insurance costs which will have to be paid by all competitors, the well heeled and the budget racer. Think!

-- Edited by Dusteater on Monday 10th of August 2009 12:17:33 PM

-- Edited by Dusteater on Monday 10th of August 2009 12:19:38 PM

fair enough ,
but heres a story for ya , a bloke i know is now in a wheelchair not from racing!!! , far from it he was going to the pub he steped of the curb and fell to the ground his back broke and damage is spinal cord and now can not walk just a feak thing , but he says he wished it happened in a race car crash at least he would have had a better sorry to tell !!

bug308 · Forum Junkie

peteskillarpaint wrote:

fair enough ,
but heres a story for ya , a bloke i know is now in a wheelchair not from racing!!! , far from it he was going to the pub he steped of the curb and fell to the ground his back broke and damage is spinal cord and now can not walk just a feak thing , but he says he wished it happened in a race car crash at least he would have had a better sorry to tell !!

I bet he wished it did not happen at all

peteskillarpaint · Forum Junkie

bug308 wrote:

peteskillarpaint wrote:

fair enough ,
but heres a story for ya , a bloke i know is now in a wheelchair not from racing!!! , far from it he was going to the pub he steped of the curb and fell to the ground his back broke and damage is spinal cord and now can not walk just a feak thing , but he says he wished it happened in a race car crash at least he would have had a better sorry to tell !!

I bet he wished it did not happen at all
no he dosent think of it like that his out look is, thats life!! , im still breathing ,

Trekka273 · sponsor

Unfortunately, accidents like that can always happen, that is a fact of life. But to be honest, it doesn't have a whole lot of relevance to this topic. I know a few people who have been involved in extreme sports and never been injured, yet they have ended up in wheel chairs from other forms of accidents. That doesn't have a great relevance on the sports they compteted in.

I personally don't want to see the cars slowed down, but I would also not like to see the top level class vehicles going substantially faster then they currently are. I have no idea how to stop that from happening, but it is just my opinion, which in the end counts for nothing.

Blacky · In rehab

Dusteater wrote:
Formula one cars are obviously very quick but remember you cant race Formula one cars on a Level 3 license, you need an FIA Super License and to get one of these you need to progress successfully through lower, slower levels of motor sport.
I wonder if some of you would be so gung ho if you were lying in a hospital bed, quadraplegic and unable to work to support your family for the rest of your life, let alone ever drive or race a car again.
Off Road Racing is a misnomer. A race in fact is a competition between cars and drivers over a set closed course (race track) with a mass start and the winner is first past the flag. Off road racing is in fact more like rallying as we both traverse a dirt course and compete against the clock. So to be more correct it should be Off Road Rallying, but that doesnt sound quite so spectacular. I guess many years ago when the sport was just getting going, the name Off Road Racing had a better ring to it. Racing, in the traditional sense of the word, is not what we do.
I do drive a car on public roads but not on an unsealed public road at 200kmh with traffic coming the other way and I dont wish to see off road race cars all running on whipper snipper motors but I feel if some upper limits are not put in place the end result will be like Formula 1 in the 1950s, 60s where your chances of dying was very high and several drivers were killed every year. This would not be an acceptable outcome. We need to be seen as responsible Off Road competitors and administrators not gung ho gladiators. Remember the greatest hike in costs at an administration level has been insurance and more potential serious injuries or deaths will only skyrocket insurance costs which will have to be paid by all competitors, the well heeled and the budget racer. Think!

-- Edited by Dusteater on Monday 10th of August 2009 12:17:33 PM

-- Edited by Dusteater on Monday 10th of August 2009 12:19:38 PM

Steve ( Dusteater ) - do you think that all drivers should start off in a lower class as per F1 and progress to faster cars ? Good idea ? Maybe this idea has merit but then again aren't you one of the ones who wants to get rid of the Clubman class next year for entry level drivers ?

We all know the risks of what we do. Anyone can be injured at high or low speed in a multitude of different ways. Not many ( if any ) racers are "gung-ho". It's a calculated risk that we all take each time we race, the same as everything we do in life. I worry more about being on the road driving to the race than I do being a competitor in the race. I have a huge amount of faith in the organisers, officials, CAMS reps, marshalls etc at all the races we go to. 99.99999 % of people who are injured, crippled etc in this world did not get that way from off road racing. This really is the " wrapped in cotton wool mentallity " of dealing with things.

How many of our races, whether on sealed or unsealed roads, no matter what the speed ( 200 kmh ) have " traffic coming the other way" ??? God help us all when that happens. When you drive on a public road you could have anyone, in any physical or mental condition, at any speed coming towards you, passing you less than a metre away at a combined speed of 200 kmh + and that is if they ( and you ) are adhering to the speed limits. Do a risk assessment of that and see how it goes !!!! Ban Driving Altogether Anywhere No Matter What ????

Formula 1 in the 50s and 60s is a great analogy. Unfortunately this is now the 2000s and track design, track safety, driver training, rules and regulations, car safety, car design and safety in general have kept up with time and now make our sport safer than it ever was before. Sorry but the facts prove it.

It is the bullshit and lawyers ( that goes hand in hand ) that increase the price of insurance etc etc that destroys our sport and life general. This is because people won't accept responsibilities for their own actions.

Lets keep the goal posts where they are for a change and go racing without the bullshit. Consistancy and stability attract people to the sport. Isn't that what we want ???