Pro Class Speed

delete · In rehab

RE: Pro Class Speed

jones off road · Rehab Dropout...

Trekka273 wrote:

Unfortunately, accidents like that can always happen, that is a fact of life. But to be honest, it doesn't have a whole lot of relevance to this topic. I know a few people who have been involved in extreme sports and never been injured, yet they have ended up in wheel chairs from other forms of accidents. That doesn't have a great relevance on the sports they compteted in.

I personally don't want to see the cars slowed down, but I would also not like to see the top level class vehicles going substantially faster then they currently are. I have no idea how to stop that from happening, but it is just my opinion, which in the end counts for nothing.

I agree with Sean.

I personally dont want any change to the current rules....but I dont think a change to rules allowing more power is a good idea at this point!

To talk about accidents outside our sport is totally irelevent. We have the option to limit our chances of injury in off-road, so why would we not want to?

How many people died in road car accidents at low speed before seatbelts were mandatory, or airbags, or ABS brakes, stability control etc? All these things help us 'cheat death' everyday!

Off-road is not immune to change...the 'good old days' are exactly that, this is now, the future is coming!

peteskillarpaint · Forum Junkie

jones wrote ;
How many people died in road car accidents at low speed before seatbelts were mandatory, or airbags, or ABS brakes, stability control etc? All these things help us 'cheat death' everyday!

i dont have any of this crap on my cars , i wont buy a car with this crap on it , , as its just more rubbish on a car u dont need ,

what people need to realise is that it dose not matter what u do to make things safer , if its going to happen it will regardless of what u do!! thats life ,

dont slow cars down! as racing is racing its all about who can get there quicker but!! if you want to go that fast then yes you should have a car that is safe to do so!!

JOHNSON RACING · Powerhouse Poster

Changing tyre sizes and fuel are not going to stop accidents, At the end of the day its up to the driver how fast they want to drive ; For example;

32inch tyres , 98 unleaded , 1 broken stub axle , 1 broken leg. Shit happens, wont stop me from racing again.

Wolf · Rehab Dropout...

30 inch tyres and 70 odd rwhp....

Trekka273 · sponsor

peteskillarpaint wrote:

jones wrote ;
How many people died in road car accidents at low speed before seatbelts were mandatory, or airbags, or ABS brakes, stability control etc? All these things help us 'cheat death' everyday!

i dont have any of this crap on my cars , i wont buy a car with this crap on it , , as its just more rubbish on a car u dont need ,

what people need to realise is that it dose not matter what u do to make things safer , if its going to happen it will regardless of what u do!! thats life ,

dont slow cars down! as racing is racing its all about who can get there quicker but!! if you want to go that fast then yes you should have a car that is safe to do so!!

You have to be kidding, right??? It is a scientific fact that airbags, ABS, etc can help to prevent some accidents, and help to reduce the chances of serious injury or death. They are never going to save someones life or prevent injury 100% of the time, that just isn't possible, but they are definitely going to help to reduce the number of injuries/deaths.

But back to the topic at hand, as mentioned above, I don't really want to see the current speeds cut down. However, I would like to see if way can be found to limit the progression to greater speeds in the future. I have no idea how to do this, there are much smarter people around then me who might be able to think of ways, but I don't think in the not to distant future that you want the top level cars clocking up near the 300 km/h mark or anything silly like that.

BAJAs RULE · In rehab

wolf, that's a pretty convincing argument .
There's just no helping some people. Hey easy you put it out there, I'm just saying that's a very good point.

-- Edited by BAJAs RULE on Tuesday 11th of August 2009 05:57:12 PM

croweater · Powerhouse Poster

So, do you think under the current rules that the speed buggies has 'peaked' or is there more speed to come.

BAJAs RULE · In rehab

what's the top speed of F1 and what's their capacity without forced induction, yeah I think you could squeeze a bit more speed out of 6000cc. Obviously not me, but I'm sure there is some people with a slightly bigger budget. With the $ going into the cars these days there is no limit.

-- Edited by BAJAs RULE on Tuesday 11th of August 2009 05:54:34 PM

Rusty Nutz · Forum Junkie

I see 2 perfectly good examples on this page of how slowing the top speed of an Off Road Race Car will make no difference to the saftey of the sport we participate in.

Unless you slow the Top Speed to 90km/h...

Im not trying to come across rude at all but if I may ask...

Mr Johnson, how fast do you think you were going when the Sub Axle broke on the start/finish staight at Milbrodale?? I was sitting on the Dummi Grid. And both my Navigator and I watched it happen. Around 110km/h - 120km/h. would that be a fair guess?

And Wolf, what was your speed before impact? That was Crookwell wasn't it? So around 80 - 90km/h.

So there are 2 pretty nasty accidents. At speeds way under the speed your trying to limit.

Talking about reducing tire size and fuel octane is not going to achieve anything.

If somone has some evidence from higher speed accidents, It would be interesting reading.

The majority of accidents I ve seen in Off Road Racing are under the top speed your trying to limit.
So unless your going to limit Off Road Race Cars to 90km/h ? and have Airbags in them.
It wont make a difference.

Stuff like this will just ruin the sport. The only thing we get chucked at us now are stupid rules from the govening body of Off Road Racing. Like 2 year seat belts, Window opening sizes. Cars are to old, Cars are to small, Cars have to big a engine size. Cars are the wrong Colour.

Why stoke the fire?

I would really like to go Off Road Racing with my buggy and not have to be told that there is something wrong with the sport.

Or I need to spend more Bloody Money on my Race Car that has been developed over 21 years!!!!

LSC,

Wolf · Rehab Dropout...

There have been a few arguements about safety on this site in the last couple of months, most of which I havent weighed into. To be honest its a bit hard to take these arguments seriously.

They're racecars. Racecars go fast. Racecars also crash. Deal with it. We accept the risks and the responsibilities when we sign the entry form.

I understand that AORCom want to make our cars safer. Great, Im all for it. Surely adding a couple of extra bars to your car for improved side protection is something we should all take notice of, afterall they're for our benefit. Its not like the changes are unfair or difficult to deal with. This is one change that makes sense. Dont bitch, just do it.

To get back on the topic of this thread (speed in pro class), again I find it hard to take the arguement seriously. Sorry stingray but its way too contradictory to say that we need to limit speed in one thread (in page one of this thread):

Stingray 2212 wrote:

If we think cars are going too fast there is only one effective way to slow them down. That is to have a maximum tyre size of 33 inches, & make it compulsary that it be a production tyre as opposed to "specials". A 33 inch tyre simply won't put 700 hp to the ground, the fact that is a production tyre means that you can't run off the track & expect not to get punctures.

It would take a much different driving style & probably different cars to what we have now, but it will slow them down.

and argue for increased engine capacity to 7500cc in another (7000cc engine capacity):

Stingray 2212 wrote:

I think they should lift the capacity. The limit was relevent in the days that it was introduced. In those days a 6 litre engine was probably the most power you could get. Now we have 3.5 litre turbo engines putting out 700 odd horsepower. If someone really wanted to they could get 1000 hp out of 3.5 litres.

It would make it easier to buy trophy trucks from the USA, it may even mean some of guys from the states bring trucks over & race them. It would also open the door to buy sprintcar engines which are fairly cheap considering what you get. This would mean lifting the capacity to 7.5 litres. A 454 is 7.43 litres.

Perhaps limiting the engine HP is something that AORCom are already looking into. Has anyone asked? Are there any discussions at the top about the amount of fuel being carried? Perhaps this would limit HP at the top as people looked to be more fuel efficient? Again, has anyone asked?

And Rusty, yep, crookwell in the gully around the back. Just shifted to 3rd so yeah, 80 or 90 km/h. The accident was due to a misaligned rear rubber bumpstop mount. It had bottomed out hard in the gully the previous lap and moved the mount. Next time through it hit one bumpstop harder than the other and rebounded harder on one side flipping us off the track. So smaller tyres, engine or extra barwork wouldnt have stopped the crash. But the extra barwork may have stopped the cockpit from collapsing like it did... So if AORCom tell us to add extra rollover protection we'll do it.

There is very little wrong with the sport. Numbers are up, we're getting good representations in various classes in various parts of Aus and a growing intrest in the wider community. I agree with Rusty. I just want to go racing without being told there is heaps wrong with our sport. Arguing for change for the sake of change can only be bad for our sport.

These are my personal opinons only.

King Shocks · Forum Addict

Have followed this discussion with some interest for some days now and it is very interesting to read peoples different perceptions. Whilst i havent competed on the local scene for a few years now, i have been lucky enough to drive some of our latest and fastest pro cars very recently and i would agree that they are incredibly quick, although not that much faster than my cosworth powered jimco of a few years ago. But in making this last comment i was of the opinion back in 2003 (my last active year racing in aust) that these cars top speeds and our average event speeds were beginning to spiral out of control and it would only be a matter of time before we have a massive accident , and i still firmly believe that this accident will happen . I would like to see some sort of average event speed regulation brought into place like they have in the USA . The SCORE events in which ive been lucky enough to compete in only average a maximum of 50 MPH , if the average speed exceeds this they change the following years course to reduce the average . These course changes obviously happen frequently as technolgy never stands still . The major point of difference between our cars and the US cars is that their top speeds are way down on our pro cars , Wilson Motorsports Jimcos are geared for around 190kph (on a good day) not the 230/ 240kph that some of our cars are capable of on some of our courses . In saying this i believe that our top Turbo V6 cars have somewhere in the region of 700 hp and this is similar to the outputs of the 7litre Chevs in the US . Obviosly the point im trying to make is that these cars worldwide are very similar in specification and capability but our courses as they currently stand now allow for a massive difference in speed potential . One last point when i won the gundy race back in 1995 the average speed was 101kph the course was 123kms long with almost 32kms of enormously long sraights , last year shannons average winning speed was almost identical but he had to contend with 50 ks of meon holes ,and none of those straights . I think that this shows that whilst the cars and their performance have evolved enormously over the years we need to make an effort to evolve our courses in the same manner.

Thanks

Brad Zacka
King Shock Australia

Stingray 2212 · Rehab Dropout...

Garry, I did not say I thought the cars were too fast. I just offered a way to reduce the speed if it was the view that they were too fast.

delete · In rehab

King Shocks wrote:

Have followed this discussion with some interest for some days now and it is very interesting to read peoples different perceptions. Whilst i havent competed on the local scene for a few years now, i have been lucky enough to drive some of our latest and fastest pro cars very recently and i would agree that they are incredibly quick, although not that much faster than my cosworth powered jimco of a few years ago. But in making this last comment i was of the opinion back in 2003 (my last active year racing in aust) that these cars top speeds and our average event speeds were beginning to spiral out of control and it would only be a matter of time before we have a massive accident , and i still firmly believe that this accident will happen . I would like to see some sort of average event speed regulation brought into place like they have in the USA . The SCORE events in which ive been lucky enough to compete in only average a maximum of 50 MPH , if the average speed exceeds this they change the following years course to reduce the average . These course changes obviously happen frequently as technolgy never stands still . The major point of difference between our cars and the US cars is that their top speeds are way down on our pro cars , Wilson Motorsports Jimcos are geared for around 190kph (on a good day) not the 230/ 240kph that some of our cars are capable of on some of our courses . In saying this i believe that our top Turbo V6 cars have somewhere in the region of 700 hp and this is similar to the outputs of the 7litre Chevs in the US . Obviosly the point im trying to make is that these cars worldwide are very similar in specification and capability but our courses as they currently stand now allow for a massive difference in speed potential . One last point when i won the gundy race back in 1995 the average speed was 101kph the course was 123kms long with almost 32kms of enormously long sraights , last year shannons average winning speed was almost identical but he had to contend with 50 ks of meon holes ,and none of those straights . I think that this shows that whilst the cars and their performance have evolved enormously over the years we need to make an effort to evolve our courses in the same manner.

Thanks

Brad Zacka
King Shock Australia

Finally a voice of reason

Blacky · In rehab

Steve - " Voice of Reason " ???? Its a personal opinion - not necessarily reason. Just because you think you are right does not make it reason. Everyone respects your opinion and also your experience and certainly the time and effort you put into off road with commentating etc but everyone is entitled to a personal opinion and that is whats on here. Scott Brown is entitled to his opinion also without any personal attack.
At the end of the day we are all in it for the same thing and we need to make sure that any changes that are made to our sport are for the correct reasons and not just a knee jerk reaction to something stupid that is said or has happened, or a change to shut up a squeaky wheel. Its everyone who is involveds sport and everyone is entitled to a say about where its going.

delete · In rehab

Blacky wrote:

Steve - " Voice of Reason " ???? Its a personal opinion - not necessarily reason. Just because you think you are right does not make it reason. Everyone respects your opinion and also your experience and certainly the time and effort you put into off road with commentating etc but everyone is entitled to a personal opinion and that is whats on here. Scott Brown is entitled to his opinion also without any personal attack.
At the end of the day we are all in it for the same thing and we need to make sure that any changes that are made to our sport are for the correct reasons and not just a knee jerk reaction to something stupid that is said or has happened, or a change to shut up a squeaky wheel. Its everyone who is involveds sport and everyone is entitled to a say about where its going.

Brett, I have not once said noone is entitled to their personal opinion. In fact this forum is about expressing ones personal opinion. Scott has a personal opinion, you have one, Brad has one and I have one. I just happen to disagree with Scotts and agree with Brads. In my opinion Brads is a voice of reason. Are you suggesting that I shouldn't voice my opinion. Scott is entitled to his and so are you and I think you may be stretching it a bit if you think I was personally attacking Scott. I was merely voicing my opinion strongly besides I'm sure both he and you are much wiser than I. Just because we may disagree doesn't mean that yours is opinion and mine is something different. Take a chill pill.

"At the end of the day we are all in it for the same thing and we need to make sure that any changes that are made to our sport are for the correct reasons and not just a knee jerk reaction to something stupid that is said or has happened, or a change to shut up a squeaky wheel. Its everyone who is involveds sport and everyone is entitled to a say about where its going."

This is reasonable and I think you would find 100% agreement from all the forum participants but I fail to see what this has to do with voicing ones opinion. It's no wonder so many people fail to take this forum seriously.