i think the best way is to have no fixed time but take each case on merit ie on the first lap you blow up second gear claw back to the pits and replace your gearbox but the last car was starting its last lap you would have too say no to finishing, say you were on your last lap broke a throttle cable stopped and fix it then got a flat stopped and changed it then got another flat and limped home but were 10min to late that just crap. we pay cams to have 3 officials at each race so theres a unbiase panel who could judge each case.
you cant judge each case on its merits, sup regs or further regs must state late time allowance. If it didnt you'd just have more ****fights on your hands.
Each event is judged on many factors including usage of land, the amount of time the ambulance is paid for, availablility of volunteers & officials, public usage of the land (ie public roads) and Im sure many others.
At the end of the day, if the rules say you've got X time, then you've got X time. Its one of the reasons why I always wear a stopwatch when Im in the nav seat.
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Green Sally up. Green Sally down. Lift and squat, gonna tear the ground.
Basically I dont know - I have no suggestions on how to work out the best late time. I suppose the organisors just have to judge what is the most reasonable for all involved. Late time for Finke will be different to late time for Pines which will be different to late time for Colo.
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Green Sally up. Green Sally down. Lift and squat, gonna tear the ground.
Depending on the event, in short course, how about twice the time of the fastest competitor?
In long course there needs to be a cut off for the last lap, which could be half the lap time of the fastest competitor after they have finished, to be allowed to start your last lap. So if the winner does a 45 min lap, and they have finished the event, you have 22.5 mins to start the last lap.
for example at the pines race the main road must be reopened by eg 4.30pm so you must start your last lap by 3.45pm or you will be stoped at the finnish line.
so in offroading you can have a merit system for seeding but you cant have one for late time so if you fail to finish proluge or a heat you can move back up the feild but if you are 2min late you out . if you have time constaits on running the event ie road needs to reopen you will have a cut off time to start your last lap but the rest should go on merit.
eg At the "Hyden 400" this year, car 1111 completed section 1 in 1:45 car 469, completed section 1 in 3.16(no problems reported) So 1.45 x 2 = 3.5hrs(correct me if i'm wrong) This means if car 469 had any problems in this section he has 14mins to fix them-Is that enough time to fix a flat?only just! It also means that car 111 has 1.45 to fix the same problems...
This eg was the first section of the AORC this year Have not looked at any other section yet
Also At Mildura this year car 1 received a 30min penalty for short cutting! Lets hope car 469 stays on the track!!
I guess car 469 is just going to have to drive faster.
Any idea how they do it for Griffith? Kel Williams must cut it close each year. How about Warialda? They have a (very fun) public road section.
After reading off this thread, twice the time ofthe lead competitor seems the fairest way to my puny mind... but Im sure there may be other issues at each event which may warrant a shorter late time.
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Green Sally up. Green Sally down. Lift and squat, gonna tear the ground.
Are you 469??? Better pick up the pace Slow man... Seriously, we are racing, and if 469 takes nearly twice as long as the winner, then he would understand he could run out of late time.
The other option is when the flag falls we all finish, a la circut racing.
No, I'm not car 469, but I don't pretend to be car 1111 either And I'm quite sure also that "kick my dog" is not in that class as well However its much easier to have the odd problem and be in car 469's position than it is for most of us to be in car 1111's position Lets hope that if car 469 ever races at Warialda he doesn't kick "kick my dog" in the you know where.....
As the navigator of Car 469 at Hyden we were going as quick as our car would allow (engine trouble with a few? stops to keep it going)
Being involved in a car that has been stopped because we would have run out of time I understand there has to be some cut off time and it must be enforced to ther minute. Do we allow two minutes extra or perhaps 15. Perhaps an hour. As you see there does have to be a set time. We can't just let someone keep going forever. I feel all that needs to happen is that we (lower budget competitors) are given a fair and reasonable chance to finish an event if we experience some (not major) trouble. Having competed in only six races perhaps I could be considered inexperienced but all these races in WA have allowed adequete time to finish, even for us.
Surely there is adequete time if you can change a Gearbox or Driveshaft and still finish within the allocated time. Both of these have happened in WA this year
By the way 1st in Class and 10th Outright last event so we are getting a bit quicker.
Sorry to drag you into this sjracing Cheers for entering the debate
1st in class and 10th outright....well done Thats what its all about, keep tryng and we all improve Thats my point-we have to make it fair on all competitors new and old, fast and slow, If a new guy keeps running out of late time, how is he going to improve...or for that matter why would he keep trying
ps Despite some of the little digs at each other, I think we are all still good mates?? except for you slow.......ha ha
I always check the details of sup regs - esp when we went to griffith. I always try to remember to wear a stopwatch in the nav seat to keep an eye on late time, to make sure that our times closesly match the times of the timekeepers, but mostly incase we stop to assist in an accident and move on we dont get gypped on the time we may assist at the scene for.
sjracing - BAJA's rule would be glad to see that the baja's beat the trucks. Well done and thanks for your comments - though what would you consider to be "fair and reasonable"? What would you classify as 'some trouble' If you're talking gearbox change, the fastest we've helped in (with 1887 at DDalong) was 42mins...
I still say its dependant upon the individual event and the organisors thereof.
The late time at Pines I dont think was fair and reasonable, but there may be mitigating circumstances that we are unaware of.
Has anyone checked the cams manual to see if there are any rules, suggestions or guidelines regarding the allocation of late time?
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Green Sally up. Green Sally down. Lift and squat, gonna tear the ground.
Have just looked at some times for us at our last race to see how the lower budget cars run against the leaders.
We completed Day 1 in 1 hour 42 minutes with quickest car 1 hour 13 minutes. The allowed time was 2 hours 30 minutes in the sup regs but extended to 3 hours prior to the start of the event due to conditions. We ran trouble free so even allowing for some time (42 minute gearbox change) to fix a problem we had what I would consider a reasonable time to complete the day.
Breaking up into laps the lead car was running around 14 to 15 minute laps whilst we ran 19 to 20. About 33% slower than the quickest car. So allowing twice the anticapated time of the quickest car seems to be around the mark for me. I am sure most of us just starting out or not running super quick times (for whatever reason) accept we can run out of time if we have major trouble.
I have been racing for a long time. Most racesI go to it IS twice the anticipated time of the fastest car. At The Pines Enduro you had to do 135km in 110mins which meant that you had to do each lap in 36.6 mins and the fastest car was doing it in 26 mins. So as you can see, The Pines Enduro is not really an endurace race but a sprint race.
