Buyer Beware

Powerhouse Poster

Buyer Beware

Powerhouse Poster

Buyer Beware

Buying your first Off Road Race Vehicle is exciting, and hopefully very soon after purchasing your new vehicle you will be on the track at your first event. However a situation came up recently in NSW that could have left one very disappointing purchaser unable to race.

Like buying any second hand vehicle, in Off Road also there are a number of things to consider, and a few issues you may need to deal with prior to getting on the race track.

"RACE READY" may mean the vehicle is in going order but doesn't always mean it complies with the current regulations, especially if the current owner has not raced for two or three years .

All Off Road vehicles require a log book, which must be signed over into the new owner's name and CAMS notified within 7 days, the form "Log Book Amendment Form: 12-2-4" can be downloaded from the CAMS Website and must be completed by both parties. (It is your proof of ownership) and a requirement to race. If there is no log book one will be required and an application will have to be completed along with a few additional requirements.(see the website)

Secondly the vehicle must comply with the current General and Specific Requirements for Off Road Vehicles, check the current Cams Manual www.camsmanual.com.au contact your local Off Road Club, where you will find a lot of very knowledgeable people including scrutineers who are usually more than happy to help out. Call the Cams Office for advise on yourresponsibly and/or contact details for Off Road clubs in your area if you dont already have contact details.

Then once the vehicle is all ready you will need to join a CAMSaffiliated club, get your license and your race apparel, then you are ready for your first event.

Good Luck and Welcome to Off Road Racing, it's exciting, fun and a great way to play in the dirt.

Sue Zettl

On behalf of the NSW Offf Road Panel

-- Edited by 232 on Monday 23rd of August 2010 11:59:10 AM

funco · Forum Addict

Im not sure if checking with a scrutineer is the way to go, I think the cams manual would be a safer bet.
I was scrutineered on Saturday morning at Milbrodale, passed with no drama's. On completing the prologue, a very high ranking OFFICIAL seriously chewed me out, and told me I may as well go home because my times would not be recorded, as my vehicle did not comply.
My vehicle was checked & passed by the CHIEF EVENT scrutineer not even 3 hours earlier! Nothing had been changed on my vehicle between scrutineering & prologue.
I was happy to amend my vehicle, but pretty pissed off at the ear bashing I recieved by the OFFICIAL, especially when a national competitors vehicle - not even 15 metres away, had EXACTLY the same discrepency that I was chewed out for.
When I pointed this out to the OFFICIAL, who approached me after I had fixed the problem, he set about chewing me out again.
I had actually copied this National competitor, I thought what he had done looked shit hot, and considering he had ran many, many National Events with this discrepency, and had obviously been scrutineered many, many times by National scrutineers, thought that it must have been OK.
I was told later that it had been considered OK for him, as they knew who he was. I think there was about 5-6 Jimco's at the event, and probably another 10 huge monster A arm buggies, who knows, they all look the same. There was 1 SWB Pajero.
The BIG drama was the roof fin. Check the photo's that have been posted. White numbers on a black background. As said earlier, I knew it was not right, I simply thought whats good for one must be good for everyone. My vehicle was pretty recognisable among 65 buggies, did they really need to read the number?
I awoke on Sunday morning to find that the big National guy had been made to change his vehicle, but Im pretty sure he didnt get the drubbing that I recieved!
To save yourself the ear bashing I recieved by this OFFICIAL, use the CAMS manual to check that your car complies. Dont think that if they can do it, you can do it, nor go off what a scrutineer tells you is OK.

-- Edited by Lenlord 4WD on Tuesday 24th of August 2010 12:10:38 AM

funco · Forum Addict

I was a tad harsh in my post above, hence the edit.
Moral of the story not only for new off roaders but also current ones is to go by the cams manual for all requirements for their vehicles.
For new off roaders, whom Sue has written the post for, most officials are very good and also very polite when speaking/dealing with competitors, I just seem to have caught this official on a bad day.

Buggy924 · Powerhouse Poster

You are correct in the comment about there being some good and bad officials out there. There are heaps more good than bad. If we want to promote our sport then we need to change the attitude of these few. As a exnational competitor I had a few club members from South Australia who assisted me in getting through my first couple of club and then national events. If a vehicle passes scruitineering then the official should politely identify the issue to you and also the chief scruiteneer as this is a issue with the scruitineers checking. I had an issue at a national event with a part of my buggy being identified as being incorrect, after it had passed scrutineering. This item had been like it for a couple of years but I was able to rectify it in two minutes. The official who identified the error spoke to me politely and actually showed me in the Cams manual the paragraph to read. I was greatful for his feed back and assistance.

You may be correct stating he could be having a bad day but in the end if a potential new offroader saw his outburst, he may change his mind to join our sport.

Did you report this issue to the drivers representative on the day?

funco · Forum Addict

The competitor liason officer for the event was also the chief scrutineer who checked my vehicle, so instead I approached one of the cams stewards about the treatment I recieved. This however, did not go down well with the official, who made a remark during one of his outbursts that I had been whinging to people about the issue.
As I said earlier, I had no problem changing my roof fin. I had two roof fins with me, both did not comply with current regulations, so I put the better looking one on. I passed scrutineering without any entry being noted in my log book or any comments made. My problem was & still is being spoken to like a 2nd rate citizen. We cant all afford to spend massive amounts of money on our hobby, but we should still all be treated equally, as we all still pay the same entry fee.

Buggy924 · Powerhouse Poster

The actions you took to try to rectify the remarks by the High Ranking Offical in my opinion were correct. Any official who speaks down top a competitor should not be in the position as a high level official, let alone an official. He has to remember that without club members who turn up to race at the national events there would not be enough entries to run a national event. We are all human beings and equal. I wonder how he would feel if the shoe was on the other foot?

scooter · Forum Addict

As a member of the hunter valley off road racing association i am very dissappionted to hear this sort of thing happened at our race, If the high ranking official has nothing better to do on race day than to chew you out about a roof number he or she is probably in need of a tune up, If the car was past by Peter he obviously had no problem with it, because if he did he would of written the fault in your log book. Peter was chosen by our club as the competitor liason firstly because he knows the rules back to front and secondly because he will sort any problem taken to him regardless of the supposed rank of the offical and he doesnt care if you are from the big end of town or a club racer. next time please raise your problem with him or any other hunter valley club member and we will endeaver to sort it ,as we want to see you back next year. Regards Scooter

feral off road · Forum Junkie

i know what id be doing with that shoe...an my foot would b in it!!!

TOYOTAPOWR · In rehab

Name and shame.
Although I can probably guess who it is as I ,and many others no doubt ,have been on the receiving end of his bad manners.
These people need to realise the racer is assentially the 'client' and if you treated your customers like that they wouldn't come back.

I refuse to ever compete at the Pines again due to similiar treatment from a steward and I'd be prepared to bet its the same bloke.

kuster · In rehab

Don`t feel bad we received the same treatment for the same (minor)infringement at a national event last year and told if we didn`t rectify it by prologue we would be excluded form the event.
We suggested to note it in the log book to be rectified by the next event, but this very high ranking official wouldn`t have a bar of it and made a big issue of this very small infringement.

Elaine Nikiforoff · Powerhouse Poster

None of the stewards of the event were the high ranking official referred to.

Powerhouse Poster

It's really disappointing to read some of these postings, I was asked to issues some information to assist, new and current competitors to our sport to ensure they are on the right track prior to arriving at their first event and are unable to race due to no log book or first aid kits, or the correct race apparel, or non-complaint side intrusion bars or roof supports, as per the current rules. Even looking forward to 2011 many of you will be required to have a pre session vehicle inspection before your first race, the rest of you in 2012.

But yes I agree, the Cams manual should be the first place to start looking at the requirementsnecessary. Even after three years on the commission and being involved in many of the changes I still refer to the Manual over and over, read the latest bulletins and check quarterly updates.

But sometimes you just need to talk to someone, and there are many, many well educated people in this sport who are happy and willing to help, including the scrutineer at this event in question, I dont know the reason he passed your roof fin, and I don't want to go any further into this matter other than to say, as a long time competitor, Lenlord 4WD, you know the rules yourself and even if another competitor was also non compliant in the same way, two wrongs dont make a right.

Being an official is a hard job and there are days, weeks and even months leading up to the event weekend for these guys so unfortunately they may be tired and a bit stressed, but that is no excuse for rudeness or derogation of a competitor. Regarding the alleged abuse by the official, CAMS have a number of rules and policies in place, including a Code of Conduct, and Members Protection Policy (see the website) which effect all members of CAMS whether you are staff, an event official, a Stewart or a competitor, and if you think someone has treated you in a way that is in breach of the rules then you are well within your rights to lodge a complaint.

We are all in this sport for the enjoyment of it and it saddens me to think a number of people left last Sunday night in some way or another upset and disappointed by the weekend. We want everyone to have a great weekend off the track at least, we can't do anything about blown engines or missing third gear or the bank or tree you got just a little too close to.

Lamby · In rehab

The stewards are cams appointed to any national event so penalising a club by not going to their event serves no purpose other than fewer entries to a good event
That steward could turn up at any avent so are you going to boycott all events?
It is not the organising clubs fault, and if you have an issue with an official speak to the CRO about it.

simpson · Rehab Dropout...

You are correct Sue we all say and do things we regret later over the last couple of years there have been a number of rule changes that have left me scratching my head there are a number of rules when building or modifing these cars that can be seen to go a number of ways After doing a lot of state and national races had my roof brace knocked back at Finke even though it had been fine for years only to notice a number of American built cars at the same event were not as good as the one in my roof so on getting home made changes no big deal . As a recomendation could we go back to the system where for each class of car you can call a nominated person in each class that knows the rules and has the time to answer the questions the cams manual only seems not to answer or make you more confused this forum is not always the way to go to get such answers ...............

funco · Forum Addict

I was never going to let what I consider bad manners ruin my weekend, Milbrodale is the event I really look forward to each year. I still had an excellent weekend, fantastically organised by HVORRA, good camping, great company around the camp fire, awsome racing. The mighty Paj just keeps going & going, and Im getting more race kilometres this year then I probably have in the previous 5 years racing buggy's. I bolted the towbar back on sunday afternoon, hooked up the box trailer, and drove her home. She drove home just as well home as she drove up there, and I raced it as hard as I possibly could. Its a bloody good advertisement for mitsubishi. I dont mind at all being near the end of the field after prologue, as I know that is not where we will be at the end of the race. Why the hell are there not more class 7's going around???
But 232, you seem to have missed the point a little - Whoa - de ja vu - the official on saturday didnt seem to "get it" either. It had nothing to do with "2 wrongs dont make a right". It was probably more like 35 wrongs up there on the weekend. It did, and still does, have everything to do with being treated with dignity, and being spoken to with decency & respect. Had that happened, I wouldnt have had a complaint to take the stewards about being spoken to so poorly about something so trivial (as recommended by you, which the official did not like at all). Nor would I have bothered mentioning the many other competitors who had illegal numbers/roof fins. I was born into off road racing, and have never personally experienced such a dressing down before.
There does not seem to be any shortage these days of people coming into our sport with mega dollars to spend, which is obviously great for the promotion of our sport. But Milbrodale would not be what it is without the grassroots competitor, the club & state guys. Imagine what would happen if us club/state competitors all stayed home in fear of being treated this way? There would have been 5 entries & 2 finishers!
We all pay the same entry, we are all there for a good time. 90% of us are not expecting an outright position. We still all deserve to be treated the same.
The scrutineer was/is a very nice guy, and unfortunately, will probably be alot tougher on competitors in the future. But I would still very much prefer for him to pull me up for a discrepency then to be spoken to like I was.
I just wanted to make a point / give my opinion that the cams manual is the safer option to get things right, and considering the feedback, most seem to agree.
Enough said, lets move on & enjoy our off road racing!