my car is close to being finished,most of the new barwork is up to date, some isnt and never can be but its still very safe question is am i wasting my time even finishing it to get an inspection and be told i cant race (because its an old car)or every year is there gunna be another rule to slowly get rid of old cars.or do i and many other old car owners go down the good old historic road.
when u see the old formula 5000s running, they dont make them have carbon fibre tubs because the new f1 cars do
they dont build a historic touring car to v8 supercar specs
keep going and there will be no budget racer left in offroad and without the budget racer there will be no offroad
anyone wanna buy an old half finished car
thoughts from the outside looking in.

Watch the video of Danny Auricht's crash at the Pines a few times if you need reminding of why a car needs to be built right and maintained.
Normal scrutineering before an event cannot check roll cage integrity so how can we ensure cars are safe?

I bought a Jimco out of the state and believe me they are not the experts on safety.The roof was made of 1 mm alloy and was held on by 3 dzus fasteners at the front and 2 pins at the back.
They also hot refuel with people in the car whereas you get penalised for taking the cap off with the motor runnning here. Who is safer?

-- Edited by TOYOTAPOWR on Tuesday 21st of September 2010 08:50:59 PM

I do not wish this to be taken the wrong way, I am all for safety, but also in keeping our sport alive, but it appears to me that--

There are people in higher positions,
......that take something that is NOT broken
......then they BREAK it
.....then they FIX what wasn't broken in the first place
......then THAT justifies the higher position they are in!

What about all the cracks it leaves behind?

I think 'procrastonation and southern son' are perfect examples.......

I remember years ago when a new rule was being discussed, it was mentioned at race meetings, discussed round campfires, panel and class reps existed(similar to Mickles suggestion) and were contactable to view your opinions...........where have we gone wrong?

 I got some things sorted for me . Ok If your car is older than 1998 you must comply with the roof reinforcment and the side intrusion these are the only new rules you must comply with  as long as you have a log book . So that means no more cutting for me and I can keep putting my thing together . This info was from a grade silver scrutineer .  

southern son wrote:

---

 I got some things sorted for me . Ok If your car is older than 1998 you must comply with the roof reinforcment and the side intrusion these are the only new rules you must comply with  as long as you have a log book . So that means no more cutting for me and I can keep putting my thing together . This info was from a grade silver scrutineer .  

---

With all due respects to all, well done Mat for going further than this forum to get a sensible answer, doesn't seem so bad for older cars after all does it. Also if you check the checklist available on the homepage there isn't really anything frightening about the inspection, ask yourself, if the panels are really that hard to get off is it because they were poorly designed in the first place, were they a last minute attachment after months or years building to go racing or are you afraid of what you might find. Either way this may be a good time to get in early, remake the mountings so they will be easier next time & likewise if the panels haven't been off in a while wouldn't you like to know if there are any nasties hiding behind them because guess what, if it's cracked or rusty & you don't see it, it's still cracked or rusty & lets not kid ourselves we've all seen cracks that we'll get around to fixing, even a car that may be brand new from the USA can crack, They may not think so but even Americans aren't perfect, I wouldn't compare a new race car to a road car, for instance new cars are mass produced in very precise production lines & are covered by extensive warranties etc & are expected in most cases to be checked/serviced 6 monthly to maintain such warranties . A rego check is not a garrentee of roadwothiness anyway, it even says so on the form, I'm sorry but I'd reckon a couple of days or nights inconvenience every 2 years to have another pair of eyes look over my car would be the cheapest insurance policy I could have.

 

AORCom has said that this is NOT going to be a panel off inspection. If you read  the check list with this in mind the whole thing is a joke. How can you check panel mounts when the panels are on? how can you check seat mounts with the seats in the car?

Jones got it spot on. It aint broke. But it soon will be.

In 1978 you could go and buy a scorpion buggy frame, new, for bugger all, and if you had very little money left, you would put a 1200cc vw engine in it and go racing. If you had lots of money you would put a 2180cc vw engine and race with the elite. 32 years later, after who knows how many races around salt lakes etc. it is still legal to put a 6000cc chev into that original frame ( designed for a VW engine ). It is made of thin wall tube, of unknown condition inside the tube, has been crashed, repaired and crashed again. Some are already saying it takes 2 days to get the floor and panels off,- how many years since they have done it? Many will say, stiff shit, if they want to risk their lives, thats their problem. Well it is not! If they kill themselves, the offroad community pays, from more rules, more coroner reports, more insurance etc etc.
So, what does AORCOM do -- wait till someone dies OR be proactive?
I reckon you are getting off lightly with only having an inspection, once every 2 years.
Think about other options that were on the table;
*Ban pre2000 chassis'.
*Enforce current rules (retrospectfully) on all cars.
*Limit engine size on all pre2000 cars.
*Limit engines to a size that the car was originally logged with.
So, I will repeat, I reckon you got off lightly.
Too many people shitcan AORCOM without having a clue what the other options , at that time, were.
And, if you dont like how many roof bolts you are required to have, get off your arse and go to your state panel and have them lobby to do something about it. It gets far better results.

-- Edited by croweater on Friday 24th of September 2010 06:18:17 PM

AORCOM does not sit in a board room inventing ideas, they get agendas from either CAMS or state panels. Most of the complaining you are doing is about items that have come from state panels. This means, most of the time, that a club person has had an issue, brought it up at his club, had his clubs support, taken it to his state panel, got support from his state panel, then the state AORCOM person brings it up at an AORCOM meeting. It may go back and forth a number of times from AORCOM to the states until it is resolved. A lengthy process, frustrating at times, but the only way to make sure everyone gets a say.
However, if you choose not to actively follow, or your club has poor delegates, or your own state panel is not functioning to its potential, it is hard to follow. Other directives come straight from CAMS for whatever reasons, that need to be acted upon.
The persieved lack of communication that you mention is often closer to home than AORCOM.
The options ( on older cars ), well state panels brought it up, discussed it, resolved it over possibly a 3 year period. You tell me where the comminication broke down, but it wasn,t AORCOM.
Remember also, in this whole chain of events, it is volunteers, at club level, state level and national level. You cant always choose who is volunteering and sometimes you have to run with what you get BUT they are all appreciated and trying their best.

"Too many people shitcan AORCOM without having a clue what the other options, at the time were".

That is the main problem, why don't we know? Why don't we get a say?

Let's be honest AORCOM is effectivly a closed shop. There have been & still are many ways that it could be more open to the competitors. What you are in fact saying is that if for what ever reason a person is unable to attend club meetings then they are not able to have any input into how their sport is ran.

I would have loved the chance to comment on "limit engine size on all pre 2000 cars" what a bloody good idea. Also "Limit engines to a size that the car was originally logged with" That seems like one of the smartest things ever said!!!

The biggest problem with these inspections is as always they will be so open to personal interpretation. If I have a crack in the frame one scrutineer may say just weld it up, another may say that entire piece of tube needs to be peplaced. It will be a dogs breakfast. Do we have the right to appeal? Who makes the final decision? Can a scrutineer simply say you cant have that motor in that car? There is very little detail about how this is going to work

william wrote:

---

well when it come to communication thing it is today frog shit that it take so long for information to get out there. here on this site we plenty of space to talk about everything going on in our sport. well as it stands the members of this and other forums are the sport so why cant thing be talked about here.

i know that volunteers give lots of time to keep us racing etc etc but i think that the paying customers the same as with anything should get to have a say.

you might say well go through the right channel but lets look at that. sorra meet once a month so you raise something. that will then go to a state panel meeting which will more then likely be the next month. the the panel with think about it and review at the next meet say one there month then they send it on to aorcom who meet the next month and then seek advice then meet the next month and make a decision then that will go back to the state panel who would look at it then if it all good will go to the next club meeting.

so i count at least 4-5 month to even see some sort of answer.


there must be a better way. also how about the mass of people who it's just not practical to get to a meeting due to the distance required to travel.

also where is a list of people who can carry this inspection out a avaliable

---

Totally agree with you re; communication via forum, but would it just become a whinge fest. It is also a sorra site not a national site. I agree a heavily moderated,  members only form of chatting and communicating would be great. Looking back on lots of old posts, there are not to many things that everyone agrees on, so it would be very hard for it not to turn into a personal slinging match. Maybe a new topic should be started on this.
As for inspections, in SA, the state panel has worked with clubs to have a number of orginised days, both metro and country to accomodate this.

 

Find out when the inspection is on in your area & take it alomg, with panels off.
In Sydney, SORRA is trying to work out a suitable day or days to do it, with maybe a Bar BQ to make the day a little more family friendly? Hop on the club part of the website and give an idea when it might fjt in with your plans, or any ideas to make it work.You can give a hand on the day as well.

Days talked about at this time seem to be around the end of January.

Hunter Valley,Kempsey,Griffith,Central Coast,Warialda & Crookwell Clubs will ,I imagine be having inspection days organised in their respective areas for this.
Maybe the NSW State Panel has more info on what has been organised? Ask your club rep from the Panel 

We want to get it all happening ASAP so everybody is able to go racing next year,

-- Edited by heyu on Tuesday 28th of September 2010 05:15:11 PM

-- Edited by Bajas Rule on Tuesday 28th of September 2010 06:43:35 PM

Hi All,

I haven't commented on this topic yet. But its defiantly an interesting one. Lots of good points from both sides.
I would like to say since it is a touchy topic. I am not making any personal attacks on anyone. Just my personal opinion.
Ill start by saying I have been on the NSW State Panel for 2 years now which is voluntary. And unfortunately have not been able to attend as many meetings as I would have liked to this year but none the less. I try to keep as updated as I can through various means.
I will also say I own an Off Road Buggy. A Super 1650 that was built and started its life in 1988, Same time I did. Dad also owns an Off Road Buggy. It was built and started its life in 1990. So two "Pre 2000 buggies" (if that's what we would like to refer to them as) in one family. And we (the family) love the sport. I have been around Off Road Racing since I was born as many others have. I have watched the sport grow. And I have had involvement in building a few buggies. And enjoy it lots as does everyone involved in Off Road Racing. Otherwise, why do it?

As far as Safety goes. Yes it is important. I don't think anyone would tell you it is not. I enjoy driving my older buggy. And the work that gets done to it is by me. I am safe in my buggy. Because it is safe. I built it safe. I wouldn't do a 160 km/h in it if it wasn't.
If it needs to get checked by a Silver Scrutineer to tell me that. So be it. I don't agree with it. But its to late now.
Comments like limit engine size and original engines in these so called "pre 2000 cars" are just excusses for change in my eyes. You can make a pretty horny 1600cc motor. And put that in a buggy that ways 850kg with a gearbox gear for 180km/h. What have you fixed... Nothing. If there is a problem then fix it properly. Comments like that are just things that make people feel good about safety. If the people who run the sport a getting worried about some particular safety factor in the sport. I'm sure everyone involved in Off Road Racing can come up with a better way to do it. Or a rule if need be to actually solve the issue. Instead of guessing.
Don't pick a particular set of vehicles/people/competitors to scrutinize. If a pre season scrutineering needs to take place to ensure the safety of vehicles. Don't do some. Bloody do all of them. What makes a buggy built in 2000 safer than a buggy built 1999.
Safety is important. I think what pisses people off is the way the decisions come to a close. And yes I did say that at my State Panel Meeting.
Everyone is happy to make Off Road Racing safer for everyone. But the option for all forms of competitors with all varieties of Off Road Race Vehicle, Officials and Scrutineers should be involved in the process of making new rules. Especially ones that affect a lot of people in Off Road Racing. The majority of them volunteers.
Some people who race Off Road, race on a tight budget. I know I do. But it doesn't mean I don't feel strongly about the safety of my Off Road Race Car.
Rules like 2 years for seat belts and Side intrusion regs. Well I don't agree with all forms of those particular rules. But at least they are across the board for all competitors.

Communication, Well I will not say that communication is good between Off Road Panels, Officials, Scrutineers and Competitors. Because its not. I think we can all see that. But it is there. And yes of course we can all work to make the communication better. But in my eyes things involving new rules have not been properly discussed with all people in Off Road Racing before the decisions have been made.

My 2 cents worth.

Thanks,
LSC

LSC,

This is NOT a pre 2000 built  vehicle inspection, all vehicles will be inspected over the next two years.

As I stated  earlier:
"The only reason it was split into a Pre 2000 the first year and from 2000 in 2012 was logistics.  To have every Off Road vehicle inspected between now and the first event in 2011, then every second year from then may be asking a bit much of a group of volunteers."