2012 National Round Rumours

Patrol842 · Forum Addict

RE: 2012 National Round Rumours

Stingray 2212 · Rehab Dropout...

So what you are saying Andrew is that the Finke race should have the right to not sign up to be a national event but then get a guarantee from AORCom that they will not allow any national event to be held on the same weekend.

Are you saying that the Finke cant survive if it has to compete with a national event on the same weekend.

I guess we can conclude that the fact Sea Lake has not only survived while having to compete against a national event held on the same weekend & has even at times attracted more competitors, that it is well suited to take over the mantle of the national event on the Queens birthday weekend.

020 OFFROAD · Regular Poster

Stingray, you surely can not be serious. If that is your actual opinion then I suggest you re read all threads regarding this because that's not how I see it at all.

I dont think PKMS are saying anything like what you are implying. Finke is known to be the true test of the best Driver/ Car/ Team in Australian off-road racing at the time. Most top level drivers (I think) are going to go to finke still. This means that they will forfeit Round One of AORC pretty much putting them out of contention of the championship.

Four out of Five of last years rounds originally told them they were not signing. Last year these rounds had a make-shift agreement which waivered them from having to oblige to the actual contract. Makes sense, no? This in itself should ring alarm bells in any sane persons head.

Then, the contract for this years rounds was released and it is the same as the 2011 contract only re-dated. "Nothing sus guys, you can just not sign it again."

The organisers of Hyden, Finke, Baroota and Pines made the decision to make a stand. The Pines later decided that they would fold and cotinue to run their round. Then, during the one way correspondence, AORCom made a deal to run Gatton on the Baroota weekend and told Baroota to put in for the Easter weekend, which they denied.

You say that these clubs accepted the contract for the "good of the sport" but they really signed for the betterment of their own rounds at the expense of the championships value. A little shortsighted to say the least.

I for one wholeheartedly agree that the drivers/ teams need more input and that a drivers committee should be formed (as was attempted a couple of years ago when noise testing was the issue). There should be a lot more transparency with what goes on behind closed board-room doors. I don't understand why it has to be so esoteric. Minutes are rarely released and I do not believe they reflect the actual meetings. If the boards/ board members are surreptitiously making these decisions then the drivers CLEARLY need more of a say.

Thats what I think anyway, if anyone has a logical rebuttal or feels that I am wrong, feel free to let me know.

dan · Forum Junkie

http://blogs.abc.net.au/nt/2012/01/finke-race-threatened.html

Lamby · In rehab

Just a quick note on this discussion, the pines did not "fold" and sign any contracts
We achieved a resolution that involved no orrinc contracts or any variations to the organisational requirements
From previous years.
Our club was satisfied that all of the issues that affected our event were dealt with
And that future plans for the aorc and media involment would involve the clubs that are hosting
a round of the aorc to be involved in decisions regarding the series.
We have also been assured that a complete review of the way the aorc calendar is set and a review of orrinc ,aorcom and their
Board members and how they are elected will be undertaken.
Our club only chose to conduct a round of the aorc after these conditions were met.
This deal was also offered to the other organisers not just the pines.

Peter Kittle MotorSport · Newbie

Stingray as I said in my earlier post, the team has nothing against Sea Lake or its place on the calendar. I am not here battling for the cause of Finke, rather battling against the disarray and confusion that the scheduling of a National Event on Finke weekend has caused, as well as the disrespect shown to competitors- it certainly dilutes the quality of the Australian Championship when names like Dave Fellows, Shannon Rentsch and Travis Robinson have already confirmed that they will not be competing at Round 1 (Dave and Shannon are both 2 time champions over the last 4 years).

No one can deny that Finke is the most prestigious event in Australian Off Road Racing. As a team that has supported the Australian Off Road Championship by competing at almost every event for the past 11 seasons, we as a team were disappointed that the competitors were not shown the respect of some dialogue in regards to the scheduling conflict.

It was also asked whether we think Finke will survive outside of the Championship. It most likely will, as will the Championship, however neither will thrive while in competition with eachother.

The last point to be made is that competitor numbers isn't necessarily what makes a National Round great. It takes a mix of competitor numbers, spectators, media coverage, professionalism and reputation. Finke more than meets all of these criteria. Again, nothing against Sea Lake, but it just isn't the Finke Desert Race.

Incidentally Stingray, while I don't doubt you, could you let me know for my information which year Sea Lake had more entries than Finke?

Nina · Powerhouse Poster

Finke Desert Race first became a National Round when CAMS APPROACHED FINKE TO BECOME PART OF THE ROUNDS. It was not something that FDR was actively seeking at the time but felt honoured to be invited. There were many phone calls and some high ranking reps travelled to the centre to sell the AORC product. I am sure something similar has happened this time, with Sea Lake.

Dusteater · In rehab

Sealake has been on the June long weekend since it started in the 70s. Likewise as far as I know Finke has also been on the June long weekend since it started. I cant find anything on the Finkes history on its website. Both events have grown from humble beginnings and have become important events in their own right. Unless one of them wants to move weekends noone will be able to run both events in a year. Pigs might fly.

Stingray 2212 · Rehab Dropout...

I am of course talking cars only, not bikes. 08 & 09 Sea Lake had more entries. Info gathered from competitor lists from off road racing.

Danny Brown · Forum Junkie

Sea Lake Motel has 14 beds, Sea Lake Hotel has 21 beds, i wonder where everyone will be bunking up for the weekend?
I know that Sea Lake has been running on the queens birthday weekend for almost 40 years but considering they dont use the monday to run the event what difference does it make. Easter weekend seems to be free and to me would seem like a more viable option weather wise.

jump1 · Rehab Dropout...

i can tell you the hotel and motel are fully booked a year out from each event for the queens birthday weekend

Blacky · In rehab

Danny Brown wrote:
Easter weekend seems to be free and to me would seem like a more viable option weather wise.

Would spread the race year out as well.

Trekka273 · sponsor

Danny Brown wrote:
Sea Lake Motel has 14 beds, Sea Lake Hotel has 21 beds, i wonder where everyone will be bunking up for the weekend?
I know that Sea Lake has been running on the queens birthday weekend for almost 40 years but considering they dont use the monday to run the event what difference does it make. Easter weekend seems to be free and to me would seem like a more viable option weather wise.

It isn't simply to do with weather that Sea Lake cannot just move the race weekend. Things like farmers crops need to be taken into account, as do the permits required to run the event around the lake with the government department that is responsible for managing a large portion of the land used for the track. In addition to that, most of the volunteers who organisse the event are involved in harvesting, etc, at different times of the year so would possibly be unavailable to do help run the event earlier in the year.

Where does everyone bunk down at Finke? How many hotel rooms are available there?

Blacky · In rehab

Its not so much about running Finke and/or Sealake, its about running Finke and/or AORC. Kittles have made a decision as have lots of others. Many are still undecided. Whatever the teams decide to do is irrelevent in this argument, they should never have been put in this predicament in the 1st place. Its like what Superleague did to footy. It causes divides and ill feeling, takes years to recover and is never the same again. The main difference being Superleague involved large sums of money whereas AORC involves large amounts of ??? ego maybe. We are still waiting for the "other side" of the story. Lets hope the damage to our sport isnt terminal.

taiterchips · Newbie

-- Edited by taiterchips on Friday 27th of January 2012 04:44:34 PM

FULLSCALE · Forum Addict

The whole sag has now made it to national radio. I heard a segment about it on last nights ABC PM radio program. I think there's a link on the ABC website if you didn't catch it. Interview included Bernie Clohsey and Andrew Kittle.

taiterchips · Newbie

TOYOTAPOWR wrote:
Taken from Peter Kittle Motorsports facebook page

The decision by AORCom to run Round 1 of the Championship to clash with the iconic Finke Desert Race has effectively ruled the Peter Kittle Motor Sport team out of the 2012 Championship. After racing almost every race in the AORC for the last 11 years we will be racing Finke and not the Championship. This decision by o...rganisers has forced us to choose and we will not abandon the Finke Desert Race which has lifted Offroad Racing to a new level of exposure in Australia. We believe AORCom have made a bad decision and it will weaken the sport we all love. We also find it unbelivable that such a major decision has been made without any consultation with Drivers and or Teams

This is my opinion and assuming that the reason you will not be contesting the AORC is due to the points you will miss out on, as you said in another post "I am not here battling for the cause of Finke"
Your posts have been implying that you were all about supporting the AORC and this decision has effectively ruled out 2012 for your team, however after reading some of your posts I just can't justify that the Finke/Sea lake clash has effectively ruled you out of the whole AORC. Hypothetically speaking, if your team did take all of your cars to the first round of the championship and all of them DNF in the first round scoring no points, would you still pack up your toys and go home anyway for the rest of 2012 like you have stated you will due to the clash? This scenario is no different, your team is effectively choosing not to attend Round 1 at Sea lake, thus scoring no points, the same as a DNF (which as everybody knows no matter what you drive a DNF is still a very real and common occurrence). I DO NOT think it is very fare to the volunteers on AORComm that you have used the "so called" issue and the AORC and help fuel the backlash towards AORComm, which seems to be happening. From what you have posted, it seems one DNF at the first round and your team attendance numbers would be down for the rest of the rounds anyway. I don't believe that you missing one round is ruling you out of the AORC Are you choosing to rule yourself out because the chances of your team retaining the crown again have been slimmed a little bit because you chose to miss out on some championship points?? If it is, I think it is disappointing that you think that missing the first round RULES YOU OUT of the AORC. Or is there some other reason? There are alot of competitors out there that believe they still can win an AORC championship (regardless whether its class or outright) by dropping a round due to their personal reasons and I think your statement also discredits all the time, effort and money these people have committed by publically announcing that if you choose not to do one round why bother with the rest.

TOYOTAPOWR · In rehab

A solution to the current situation would be to run another round on say the Easter week end then let competitors drop a round enabling them to still run Finke and not be disadvantaged in the championship.

I wonder why AORCom stated there would be no more rounds added when they announced the addition of Sealake.

-- Edited by TOYOTAPOWR on Wednesday 25th of January 2012 05:37:27 PM

-- Edited by TOYOTAPOWR on Wednesday 25th of January 2012 05:59:04 PM

Peter Kittle MotorSport · Newbie

Taiterchips- DNF's are a very real possibility for every car in the field, and we have to take the good with the bad. The fact of the matter is, the team has 0% chance of scoring any points, class or outright, at the First Round, as a result of a scheduling conflict. If we were to go to the First Round and DNF, chances are we would have continued on with the Championship, as shown in previous years. If you read all of my replies properly the main issue is that we have been forced to choose, and even though we have tried several avenues to find out why this decision was made, we still have received no reply outside of 'Your questions will be passed on to the relevant people'.

Good Luck to the competitors that will attempt this year to win a Championship while dropping a round due to personal (or business or financial) reasons. However being forced to choose between the greatest Off Road race in Australia and Round 1 of the National Championship simply isn't fair.

You mention a "so called" issue, which I don't understand. It is a very real issue that Finke is on at the same time as Round 1, as it will result in a splitting of the field. You also mentioned the volunteers from AORComm. If they were struggling with the decision, I know several competitors who would have been happy to give their opinion and/ or advice on which road to take. On this point, which is really the point we were trying to make originally, the teams that have supported the championship over the last decade were not consulted on this important decision, and I am not talking only about us. Correct me if I am wrong, isn't AORComm supposed to be a board of representatives?

Rush · Forum Junkie

Lamby has summed up this MESS in his previous postTHE PINES DONT NEED ORRINC TO RUN THERE NATIONL ENVENT which there club have been running for years and will continue to run a great event with out the interfearence from orrinic.Boys on orrinic its time to pack your bags and get some free time back orrinc has to GO shut it down! its been tried it dosent work and will not work the cocept of orrinc have had 6 years to try and commercialise AORC back when john patterson held a meeting in peter kittels office in Alice springs its not happeneing and RACERS AND EVENT ORGANISERS ARE NOW UNDER FALSE HOPE THAT ORRINC "WILL GET IT OUT THERE".go back to the old way of doing things 5 rounds decided oct/nov for the next year, 2-3 year contracts, alternate same events in the same state ie. gatton and gundi its a big ask for racers to travel that distance twice . event organisers look after there own race promote sell whatever they need to make money clothing ,dvds,ect. the thing they all have in common are the rules and if there is T.V. it has to be policed very seriously and professional so every event and racer and sponsor knows how the show is going to run keep it simple.right now there is no AORC main sponsor, tv isnt in place so why all the hooo harrr let the clubs run there own show as they have been doing for years eg.sealake nearly 40 years attracts 60 to 80 cars every year and there always was the personal chioce to run finke or sealake both unreal events dont knock these events if you havent been!.I was there for the initial meetings to commercialise the AORC ,Kate was on the board of ORRINC i have seen and tried to change its not going to happen!. back to the good old days.where clubs run there own great events.

Chris Western.

jump1 · Rehab Dropout...

have too say iam with you on this chris. Would you keep any business running for 6 years if its not working.

dessert-people · Rehab Dropout...

the more you read of this balls up more you become aware that as offroaders cams dont give a stuff about us, after all the stupid rule jamed down our thoarts last year then this stuffup ,we as a groupneed to tell cams to stick it up there arse and go out on our own .we make our own rules up, we let the clubs that runs the events do what there been doing,as for insurance look at what AASA are doing . i dont think we can be any worse off and it could be a lot cheaper for us. furious

Stingray 2212 · Rehab Dropout...

Tait, can you please find out, or do you know how long (maybe always) has CAMS owned the commercial & television rights to the AORC. Thanks.

boss truck · Rehab Dropout...

Why would the boards from the races want to run 2 events in S.A. and only allow one in QLD. Why dont they run the rounds of the championship in a round robin type series with every event including the rounds from 2011 and 2012 being included over a two year period with the Finke race run every year in June. I for one would rather have Sealake run as l wouldn't need to take 2 weeks off work to run one race but for prestige we need Finke.

jones off road · Rehab Dropout...

Alot seemed to have happened within a few days, all of this should have been addressed sooner apparently?
Again, it appears communication has been the problem? A good example is how long it has taken for the info from taiterchips (thanks btw), but all the communication in the world will not fix last years problems.
Lets hope 2013 has open discussions that we can all be a part of!

Lamby · In rehab

So taiterchips how did you get a copy of this correspondence ?

Stingray 2212 · Rehab Dropout...

Pretty obvious I would think. I see it as a good thing. The info is getting conveyed.

tumbleweed · Forum Junkie

Jones - alot has happened because the competitors have been effected by these issues with the sea lake/finke clash. These issues have been going on for a long time and when it was the events that were effected we could not gain any traction with our concerns, which is the entire root of the problem. Now the competitors are involved there is some traction.

The info from taiterchips is the same info we referred to in our release regarding what had transpired from our point of view written in context and chronological order. We have chosen not to release the specific documentation (I have more than 200 pages) as it would seem in-appropriate to release the content of a discussion with specific people to a public forum. Our information release 'summarized' the discussions. I have concerns that taiterchips even has a copy of documents that were specifically between the event organisers, AORCom and the CEO of CAMS, let alone it is being published in this domain. That said I back anything we have written. We had had issues for a long time. We stood together for change. We didn't get what we needed. We gambled. They gambled. We lost, the sport lost. Then they announced the 4th round and the sport lost some more and everyone became aware of the issue.

simpson · Rehab Dropout...

All the finger pointing won't fix this but with all the fuss you would think could improve the way events are chosen and why can't the Finke race move weekends and run without the bikes they don't have the same time of year problems that Sealake seems to have and do you really think were not big enough to go it alone. I agree Finke is our premier event but because of its toughness not because of the number of vehicle's.

Its the bikes event let them have it back they said this would allow them to have more entrys all good.

I think if the Kittle team wants to choose Finke over the rest of the championship its there business it's a bit like having two kids playing footy at the same time on a Saturday arvo only a problem if your a single parent.

Some one said to me why can't both these events be listed as points rounds this year on the same weekend i can think of plenty of problems with this but it would solve a few problems remember this is just a forum.

Nina · Powerhouse Poster

Simpson - Finke moving weekends is not possible. Although Finke does not have the same issues as some other events that have to work around farming, fire restrictions, etc., it has it's own logistical issues to deal with. To run Finke Desert Race, the club has to apply for official road closure. This is covered by numerous Government Departments working together and consists of hours of work and a forest of documentation. Due to the pure length of the track, Finke utilizes approximately 300 volunteers. Once again, the logistics of the track requires the involvement of medivac facilities, numerous first aid vehicles and fire fighting volunteers to be on track. To split the event into two separate races would require doubling up on these resources and therefore doubling up on the expense. As this event has been in existence since 1976 it has also built it's own tourism following. This contributes not only to the event, but also to the Central Australian economy. The timing of the event is also dictated by the severe conditions experienced in the desert. It would be irresponsible to run an event of this nature during the warmer months and this event requires the full three days to run. This leaves very few options of dates.

Finke ceased to be a bike only event in 1988, when cars ran for the first time. It may not have the years of racing of some other events in Off Road, but I do believe that it deserves the reputation it has achieved. A lot of people over the last 20 odd years have worked hard to make the combination of cars and bikes work. This includes a lot of car competitors that have traveled back to the center, year after year, to compete in an event that they obviously enjoy. I believe these contributors have been successful. They have battled with CAMS and MA. They have made a level playing ground with both forms of vehicles running under similar conditions for the same prize money. They embraced becoming a national round of the championship and endeavored to comply with the ever changing regulations and requirements that were set. They have taken the event to a national level with appropriate media exposure. In other words, they have worked hard to produce a unique event that embraces both cars and bikes.

Is that uniqueness not part of the appeal?