2013 AORC calendar!

Danny Brown · Forum Junkie

RE: 2013 AORC calendar!

safeco · Forum Addict

Danny, not sure what the WA guys would think of the cost of 5 events on the eastern sea board. Baroota is 8 hours closer to NT and WA, than the pine (don't get me wrong I love the pines) so the question that none of us can answer is who presented the best offer to the decision makes? . but if you look at it from a truly national level it seem to make a lot of sense. The only thing valid in all of this that I can see is; pines vs baroota, Gatton vs gundy. The only other point is no victorian event so maybe the australian championship should be 6 races. All the rest (such as last years debacle) is a little bit irrelavent to me.
Just trying to look at it from a global point of view,(personaly a national series in sa would be best for me

simpson · Rehab Dropout...

Ok so i live on the East coast so i would be happy to have more events on my side of the planet, they ( ORRINC ) have ditched three very well run races for two that haven't had a chance to be a success or a flop, i can't see any wisdom in this at all. I feel for the clubs and there members and sponsors it's not as simple as these ORRINC members think it is NO LOYALTY at all.

So why only five, why not six or seven if we have to do all five the costs and time factor will rob us of being committed to run a series, mostly the people that live on either side of the country. BAD FORM GUYS who are you looking after its certainly not the majority.

Newbie

With the costs associated with competing all rounds of the 2013 calender it appears you might have to buy a championship rather thanrace for it.

Patrol842 · Forum Addict

safeco wrote:
Danny, not sure what the WA guys would think of the cost of 5 events on the eastern sea board. .......

Many of you are confusing general population and competitor population. Events need to be evenly distributed across the offroad competitor population which is probably why Victoria didn't get a round (check the entry numbers). As it is West Australians are paying a fortune to compete at a national level and most of us accept that, if you do not have anything in South Australia or Western Australia there is nothing within a 5000km round trip. People just won't bother unless they have massive amounts of disposable income.

The absolute minimum should be two of the rounds in WA, NT or SA, with the state that misses out getting a round the following year.

To give you some idea of the numbers in WA at state events, Bencubbin had 54 entries a week before Finke, Hyden at easter had 42 entries when run as a state round. I'm sure the numbers are strong in SA and NT as well.

Run 5 rounds on the east cost and you'll have to find another name for the series. It won't be an Australian Off Road Championship.

Webmaster · Rehab Dropout...

Just a reminder, Personal attacks are not allowed on this forum. As per posting guidelines (see posting guidelines when writing post).
Further more, if a post offends you or you feel oversteps a boundary, please report it to the webmaster.

king kong · sponsor

I don't think everybody is ever going to be happy with the current format. Personally I would hate to be the one making the decisions.
Food for thought.... I think the east coast and central west series with a shootout at the end of the year could work or possibly make an say eight race series with only five counting towards points but you must nominate your five events before the series starts and all events worth the same points. I'm sure there may be alot of issues with these that I havnt thought of but food for thought anyway

FOA Prolite · Rehab Dropout...

Danny Brown wrote:

Clearly they are not doing what they set out to do. Keeping costs at a resonable entry point for new competitors, This would include getting to events i assume?
Stimulate existing and potential sponsors, like the well established sponsors of millicent, goondiwindi and sea lake? Im sure the sponsors of these races surley dont feel stimualted right now.

Would these dis- heartened sponsors back a new series ? I wonder if the good people from Sealake, Pines, Goondiwindi, Warialda and Griffith got together and ran there own series if people would come. ORP could film it so we could get back on a decent channel and the majority was listened too and not the minority would there be bitching or celebrations.

-- Edited by FOA Prolite on Friday 12th of October 2012 02:44:36 PM

ARB TIPPING CHAMPION 2013

It seems strange to me that the events that stayed with the championship this year were the ones that got the boot, surely someone must be able to enlighten us on why this decission was made?

Me personally i would like to see a East Coast Championship started with Sea Lake, Pines, Griffith and Gundi. four rounds like this year, as that would give a good series for people that can't afford to do the Australian Championship due to work commitments and funds.

-- Edited by 2204 on Friday 12th of October 2012 02:08:20 PM

SANDMAN · Forum Addict

Firstly I am a member of the SLORC and do not wish to slag anyone off and any thoughts are mine and mine alone. I will not normally comment or get involved in any off this stuff as I hate politics with a passion.

I wish to just get one point across, Brett it with is saddness I see on the SLORC facbook page you have resigned from the commission, i read your post and good for you for standing up for your ethics and morals, what it did point out was my thoughts all along.

The one thing that is fracturing this sport is not the big money teams but the one thing that causes all businesses to fail or fraction is "COMMUNICATION".

At our business we have an open communication policy where any changes or decisions are consulted with staff (Clubs,Competitors) prior to any changes, we explain what the changes will be and how we are going to do it(process), why we wish to do it and when we wish to do it, sure not every one will still not be happy but all facts are on the table and gives them the oportunity to respond make suggestions then decisions are finalised as a group. Still not everyone will be happy but all are educated.

I am not the most computer savy person so is there a place where I and others can got to get all this information and be educated before we comment out of frustration or lack of knowledge, I generally surf this site as it generally has a lot of information regarding the sport but is probably not the spot to get all this info through.

Communication should be a 2 way street, a little give and a little take and always open no hidden agenda's, I am not saying this is not happening just that I cant find that info.

Sea Lake has always run a succesful event and will continue to for many more years regardless of status due to the great people that run it and being biased the best track in Australia, I know they used to call Kempsy the Bathurst of Off Road and I have raced there but Peter Brock has won at Sea Lake so I class that as his 10th Bathurst win.

The Pines and Gundy i feel sorry for and hope they are able to run as stand alone events and people will support them and not having to rely on national status to run.

I will be running at Sea Lake this year and have a great time even if I dont start the event like this year becuase it is in my backyard, but people have choices and I wish them all the best with their racing next year as this is the greatest motorsport in the country.

As webmaster has said no personal attacks as life is to short but generally it comes down to one thing "COMMUNICATION"

Cheers Alan

aaron_ktm29 · Powerhouse Poster

Couple of letters of facebook for people who have not seen or read them.

Letter from Matt Owen

Hi (can you please forward to the right people)

I have got a few quetions on how the locations for the 2013 AORC calender were chosen.

Of the 3 rounds held so far this year there have been a total of 265 entries received. 107 from Victoria, 67 from QLD, 46 from SA, 35 from NSW, 5 from TAS, 3 from NZ, and 1 each from NT and WA.

My questions are;
How on earth was both WA...and NT given a round and Victoria was not?
How was Lockyer Valley the only event from this year to be given a round when it is not yet proven?( Goondiwindi is proven)
Why was Finke ( 82 entries 2012 )chosen over Sea Lake( 121 entries 2012 )?
Why Baroota over Millicent?

The total distance a competitor from Melbourne (107 out of 265 so far this year from Victoria) will have to travel next year to do all 5 rounds will be approx 18250km.
Hyden approx 2900km each way
Finke approx 2250km each way
Baroota approx 950km each way
Coffs Harbour approx 1425 km each way
Lockyer Valley approx 1600km each way

Some of the Functions and Responsibilities of AORCom( as on the CAMS web page)

The AORCom shall consider

*The needs of competitors ( the 1 from NT and the 1 from WA get a round. the 107 from Vic don't) not sure you meet the needs to well here.
*The cost to competitors and organisers, including fees and other costs, to keep off road attractive to existing competitors (18250km not to attractive or cost freindley.Lockyer Valley has the highest entry fee this year)

Can someone please explain.

Thanks
Matthew Owen

Letter from Dave Oakley

This was posted yesterday by one of our club members, well said David Oakley.

Ten years ago AORCom approached our club to run the Pines Enduro as a national round as they were struggling for events and competitor numbers attending the rounds. With much debate, we accepted. 12 months later they wanted us to change how we ran our event as they didn't like us starting the cars in clas...ses slowest to fastest. We did this for them. Over the years we built up the event to run out of Teagles quarry, and with the help from Teagles, we set up the arena style viewing area and the Millicent council got on board to close the roads out to the forest. Then in 2008 AORCom wanted us move the Pines to September to get better weather and we did. In 2010 we had big rains across Australia and we had to red flag the race after 1 lap. We didn't let that stop us - we got Teagles trucks and dumped gravel in some of the more impassable spots. We got the race going again so the competitors could get results and championship points. In 2011 ORRinc th
row these contracts at our clubs to sign just to organise a round. As one club member said, Looks like it was written by a lawyer, should be read by a lawyer, which we dont have one in our club. So to try and work it all out, we had a meeting with ORRinc the Thursday before the Pines - just what you need before running your event is another meeting. Then with the help Ben Erceg and Cameron Ritchie (both former ORRinc members now), we sorted an agreement for us to hold a round of the championship for 2012. This agreement was offered to all the 2011 rounds but none wanted to take it on at that late stage. That was their decision. Now in 2012, we get the calendar dates released, to find we don't have a round after all we have done to help AORCom out. Then the biggest kick in the guts is you lose your event to another event that didnt even get their expression of interest in before the closing date. We werent even given the courtesy of being notified they had accepted another nomination after closing. ORRinc, if you want us to be more professional, maybe you have to have a look at yourselves before branding our event Not Commercially Viable. If this is your way of repaying us, Thanks!

simpson · Rehab Dropout...

I would suggest we that aren't happy with the way our sport is being run should send emails or letters to CAMS with a vote of no confidence in the current ORRINC board.

jones off road · Rehab Dropout...

'COMMUNICATION' Alan has got it right!
I have said MANY times, who are AORCOM, who are ORRINC? Who makes these decisions? It's easy to find our AORCOM/CAMs reps, but is there a list of ORRINC representatives? I know of some on the ORRINC board, but they dont seem to offer themselves, are they intending to be anonymous?
I have done my homework and do have some understanding of how it works, but it is still confusing and there is no way most of us can follow it!
Again, all I can say is CAMs have lost there way and I personally look forward to a motorsport career without them.
I also feel that people are basing their national series on the distance from victoria, no-one has calculated the distances from Qld (imagine the townsville racers?) or the other states, a true national series would involve all states. If for some reason the eastern states seem adavantaged, then look at the previous history of whats happened in NSW.....very little! So if we get a bit of an advantage then so be it, we have waited long enough, and our numbers have suffered accordingly.

boss truck · Rehab Dropout...

Jones l am based in Gladstone Central Queensland and would travel to a East Coast Championship where as the new AORC l would not because of the time off l would need. 2 weeks for Hyden 8 days for Finke and 10 days for Baroota which leaves no time for family holidays.

If a series was run with the old rounds it will be 6 days for each for me so it makes more sense for us. This year l have been lucky and l fly in for the rounds as the team l am with looses the time not me, thanks goes out to them without thier effort l would not be doing the AORC but with this change they will not be able to do the rounds either.

Nina · Powerhouse Poster

As a member of an organisation that has benefited from the decision of ORRinc and the 2013 Calendar, I wont enter into Forum debate on the choices that were made. Like jones off road, I have done some research into how ORRinc works and must admit, information is not readily available. By piecing together information, and admittedly, listening to gossip, I believe that ORRinc had selection criteria by which they judged all applicants. I have been lead to believe that the rounds of the championship were considered by the following process:
1. Proven ability or demonstrated potential to run an event to the standard expected of a National Championship
2. Top level competitor participation as would be expected at a National Championship level
3. Commercial viability
4. Environmental sustainability
5. Sustainable venue accessibility
6. Venue location in relation to spectator participation
7. Locality in relation to amenities for competitors and spectators and the sourcing of infrastructure
8. Demonstrated or documented long term plans for improvement of the event in regard to:
a. Elite competitor attraction and participation
b. Media profile
c. Ability to be financial viable
d. Ability to retain or source required Officials and Volunteers at the required level and numbers
e. Environmental and venue sustainability
I need to stress that this information has not come directly from ORRinc or AORComm so I am not sure how accurate it is.

mk5 luva · Forum Junkie

That makes great sense, the criteria are quite straight forward and transparent. On such criteria how could the Pines not get the nod... I am really over it. The nationals should be something for state/club racers to aspire to but with this sort thing going on why bother. We vote with our entries.

Brett Price · Powerhouse Poster

Impartial, unbiased prophecy - make up your own mind. CAMS STATEMENT REGARDING AUSTRALIAN OFF ROAD CHAMPIONSHIP January 27, 2012 CAMS intends to work on re-instatement of the Finke Desert Race to the Australian Off Road Championship as quickly as possible. The race is currently not part of the Australian Off Road Championship in 2012. David Morgan, CAMS CEO, says he is disappointed that the Organisers of the Finke Desert Race chose not to be part of the Championship, but would like to see it return to the Championship in the near future. The Finke is one of the iconic Australian races, said Mr Morgan. It is a marquee event on the Australian Off Road Racing calendar, and we are working to have it back in the championship. Organisers for the race withdrew their Expression of Interest to be included as part of the 2012 Championship late in 2011, and subsequently declined to attend a meeting in December with CAMS to negotiate a resolution to their key issues. Organisers of the Sea Lake Mallee Rally in Victoria submitted an Expression of Interest for the Australian Off Road Championship in January 2012, which was accepted. The Sea Lake event is the second longest-running event of its type in Australia, and returns to the Championship after an eleven-year absence to open the series on 8-10 June, 2012. The Sea Lake event has traditionally been held on the June long weekend since 1973, said Mr Morgan. This is the weekend it is always held, and it was the only event that the Championship had a submission for on that weekend for 2012. We welcome Sea Lake back to the Championship as it, too, is a special race in Australian Off Road Racing.

SANDMAN · Forum Addict

What is the longest running event then for cars If Sea Lake was second?

cobra 236 · Forum Junkie

I am not a national competitor,but do race state rounds when money and time allow,so this is just a thought in regards to running the aorc.Would it be easier and cheaper for competiting teams to race two aorc events on following weekends so theres less travelling between events,ie,goondiwindi-gatton or baroota-pines,so if teams are travelling great distance's and financial costs for single events would it not be easier to only travel say to queensland once for two weekends of racing?same for south australian events.And hyden and finke stand alone events?.just an idea,what do people think? i know sprint cars once was doin this in south australia,it may of been 2-3 events over ten days.just my 2 cents.

Brett Price · Powerhouse Poster

SANDMAN wrote:
What is the longest running event then for cars If Sea Lake was second?

I dont know which off road race has been running longer than 40 years that David Morgan is refering too. Not Finke they have been running bikes from 1976 and cars from 1988. Fifteen years after Sea Lake first ran a cars.

offroad469 · Regular Poster

Sealake is the longest mainland event on the calendar, the only one longer is one in Tassie

chooka · Regular Poster

Our event "Tasmanian sand enduro" is the longest continually run off road race in Australia. We are holding our 40th event in three weeks (2-4th November)!

tumbleweed · Forum Junkie

chooka wrote:
Our event "Tasmanian sand enduro" is the longest continually run off road race in Australia. We are holding our 40th event in three weeks (2-4th November)!

Congrats that is a fantastic milestone party

Lamby · In rehab

-- Edited by Webmaster on Monday 22nd of October 2012 02:31:40 PM

Stingray 2212 · Rehab Dropout...

Just a question about ORRInc if anyone knows. Has the ORRInc contract that caused the boycot this year been altered in any way for the 2013 championship. So is there a chance that the issues that caused this years boycot are still there or was that all sorted out before those events bothered to apply this time.

Stingray 2212 · Rehab Dropout...

Can you say or are you allowed to say what the changes to the contracts were. Did they relate to the areas that caused the grief with this years calendar.

Lamby · In rehab

Somebody obviously feels guilty enough to think I'm talking about them and complained to the webmaster that my facts have accused them of being a liar, clearly I never referred to any individual in my previous post but if you think I'm accusing you of being a liar then maybe I am correct ?
Just trying to state the facts about the whole situation so that those that are lucky enough to have not had to deal with this whole mess can get some insight into what has happened with the 2013 calendar .
Maybe you could put your side forward if you think that you didn't do anything wrong and let the Offroad community judge for themselves ?
Keep up the good work, it all seems to be running perfectly at the moment !

Nina · Powerhouse Poster

Comment on the AORC decision by the Finke Desert Race Club

I would like to respond to some of the commentary surrounding the Finke Desert Race Club (FDR) being awarded a round of the Australian Off Road Championships (AORC) for 2013.

I will start by acknowledging on behalf of the committee how proud we are that our event has been selected for the Championships. As all event organisers know, there is an immense amount of planning involved followed by sheer hard work to pull off an event and I am particularly pleased for all the volunteers who work with us. To support our submission for 2013, we forwarded a detailed information brief that included our business plan, risk awareness, professional development activities, innovation plans and details of the FDRs philanthropy.

The economic benefit to Central Australia is estimated to be in excess of $5M hence the considerable support of the NT Government and the NT Major Events Company. This assistance over the last 12 years has seen our event grow to one that is internationally recognised and followed whilst still recognising the grass roots support. With this growth comes sponsors and we have a number of sponsors who have been with us for more that a decade and are national brands.

The FDR has always maintained that one of our fundamental priorities is to see the sport we take so much enjoyment from; grow. The product is a fantastic one and whilst there are differing views on how to promote off road racing, the one thing that will unravel the work being done by so many is to denigrate each other in public forums.

The events that lead to the Finke Desert Race not being a part of the 2012 series are perhaps not entirely understood. I think it important that people understand how the situation arose given there was a build up to this decision from the year before.

Prior to the 2011 event, organisers were presented with a draft event agreement from ORRInc that outlined various responsibilities that applied to both organisers and ORRInc. The intent as I understand was to introduce some benchmarks and minimum requirements whilst also aiming to protect individual events. The premise for this was admirable and event organisers were invited to provide feedback to ORRInc on the proposed agreements.

This feedback was given in writing and there were several areas that FDR highlighted that we were unable to agree to for a number of reasons. We had a responsibility to protect some of our sponsors with whom we had entered into multi-year commercial contracts that pre-dated these agreements. The upshot was, for 2011 no agreement was signed and events continued as normal. We were of the understanding that event agreements would be in place for the 2012 Championship.

When expressions of interest were called for the 2012 AORC, the FDR duly applied and a subsequent invitation went out to the applicants to attend a meeting in Melbourne. We have sent representatives to Melbourne on numerous occasions for questionable benefit and at considerable cost. In view of this the FDR committee determined that we would only attend any meeting if we were awarded a Round why go to the expense if your not part of the Championships?

In advance of any meeting in Melbourne, an event agreement was received in the mail which needed to be signed in order to be considered for inclusion into the 2012 championship. It was the same event agreement from the previous year the clauses that we werent prepared to agree to were still included. As it was clear we couldnt sign the Agreement, the FDR withdrew its expression of interest in writing on 9th November 2011.

At that stage, the calendar had not been determined for 2012 so any suggestion that the FDR had disrupted the 2012 AORC calendar is incorrect. A three event AORC was announced in December 2011 and a fourth event was added in January 2012.

On the 27th January 2012, CAMS issued a media release that read in part;
CAMS intends to work on re-instatement of the Finke Desert Race to the Australian Off Road Championship as quickly as possible.
David Morgan, CAMS CEO, says he is disappointed that the Organisers of the Finke Desert Race chose not to be part of the Championship, but would like to see it return to the Championship in the near future.
The Finke is one of the iconic Australian races, said Mr Morgan. It is a marquee event on the Australian Off Road Racing calendar, and we are working to have it back in the championship.
The FDR believes the Finke Desert Race is held on one of the most challenging race tracks in Australia that attracts most of the top drivers and crews who represent the very best in off road racing in Australia. In addition our race also attracts competitors of all standards and budgets and we welcome them with as much friendship and support.

As with a national championship in any sport, it should be representative of the best that the sport has to offer. With the inclusion of Hyden, Baroota, Coffs Harbour and Lockyer Valley, we believe that it is part of a truly national championship. If supported, the Championship will achieve greater exposure for the sport which in turn will generate greater participation at entry level.

There has been a lot made of the fact that the Finke Desert Race had fewer entries than Sea Lake this year. That is true however the championship should be about the best the sport has to offer not necessarily who has the most competitors. This years Finke Desert Race went viral on the internet as we enhanced our website and streamed vision and a post event program produced by Guangzhou Sports TV was seen by millions of Chinese, thanks to an entry supported by our club.

I acknowledge there are a proportion of off roaders who are unhappy with the national rounds that have been selected. My only comment when people are critical of Finke being awarded a Round is to look at the process we didnt select ourselves. Having said that, being openly critical of the selection panel from ORRInc who recommended the events or AORCom who made the final selection is short sighted.

It is clear from the media release excerpt that CAMS wanted the Finke Desert Race back in the tent.

If the minority really want to drive a wedge and continue to divide the sport keep doing what you are doing; its working. For those who want to see the sport move forward by attracting sponsors, increasing spectators and developing competitors lets work together and support each others efforts.

Antony Yoffa
President
FINKE DESERT RACE INC.

23rd October 2012

BAJAs RULE · Forum Addict

Good to hear from someone that knows something. And I agree wrong information being discussed on public forums can't help the sport. I feel this could quite easily be avoided with better communication.

Simple question. 40 car limit to Coffs Harbour...... True or False... Someone knows the answer...if this is false.. No more ill informed discussion. However if it is true- someone needs to explain how this is for the growth of the sport.

Wolf · Rehab Dropout...

BAJAs RULE wrote:
Good to hear from someone that knows something. And I agree wrong information being discussed on public forums can't help the sport. I feel this could quite easily be avoided with better communication.

Simple question. 40 car limit to Coffs Harbour...... True or False... Someone knows the answer...if this is false.. No more ill informed discussion. However if it is true- someone needs to explain how this is for the growth of the sport.

The rumour mill also says 40 cars which will be by invitation only for coffs... Can someone please let the competitors know if this is true or not.