HANS devices compulsary.

dessert-people · Rehab Dropout...

RE: HANS devices compulsary.

Dags777 · Forum Addict

dessert-people wrote:
just read the cams release on fhr, so no sfi after 2015 and if you have a helmet that is not per drilled for fhr then it has to go back to the manufacture or buy a new helmet . cams slowly kill motor sport one decision at a time .

or are they saving it by preventing any future lawsuits from neck injuries?

Stingray 2212 · Rehab Dropout...

How could anyone sue CAMS for an injury, when you sign an entry form you sign an indemnity. Where is the documented evidence that in a major accident where a Hans device was worn that proves an SFI device has not performed as well as an FIA device. All motorsport has insurance, how is it that the insurance companies for other motorsport accept the SFI standard devices but CAMS wont? They use the argument that the testing is different but where is the evidence that SFI devices underperform.

jones off road · Rehab Dropout...

I agree with the restraint idea, and actually own sfi necksgen units for my kids. If cams ever get hold of trophykart insurance then I hope this doesn't apply?
Again, another decision that takes no responsibility for cost to competitors!

dessert-people · Rehab Dropout...

i find it strange that for the next 2 years your sfi device will be alright , after that the device is not so good . wheres the logic or even just a little bit of common sense in this whole process , or is it that cams sit around and make shit up.

Danny Brown · Forum Junkie

Thats because SFI aren't in bed with cams like the FIA are! How are they going to know who drilled the helmet is my question!

datto 510 · Forum Addict

CAM are defiantly gets there pockets lined !!!! in some way

datto 510 · Forum Addict

thing that gets me is they say its for the safety of our sport and competitor's etc but when I raised an issue with them about a car I purchased that did not meet cams specs but it was log booked and passed to compete and cams did nothing for me !!! oh that's right iam not a high profile driver or team and they said to me its just a budget car !!! start again and move on , WFT I said I pay the same cams fees as anyone else and deserve the same respect as the others !! but unless you have a name and a $100k+ race car your a nobody

Stingray 2212 · Rehab Dropout...

Ring CAMS before drilling any helmet. They have specific ones that can be drilled. There is a list (somewhere) of helmet standards that are able to be drilled but Australian standard ones are NOT able to be drilled. There is a huge lack of info & confusion around this issue which simply isn't good enough.

I would expect a law suit from the SFI at some point in the future.

tine · Rehab Dropout...

it only can be drilled by helmet manufacturer or agent,so i wouldnt be broadcasting it if you are going to drill it,,,

Stingray 2212 · Rehab Dropout...

It's not that simple Tine, they will not allow Aus standard ones to be drilled so if you turn up with one they wont let you use it. In the future (once mandated I'm guessing) they will be checking compliance numbers for Hans compatible helmets & if they don't comply you wont be able to use them. No matter who has drilled them. It would be much simpler if they put out a list of helmets that comply & can be drilled rather than allowing all this confusion.

dessert-people · Rehab Dropout...

what agent is ever going to drill someones helmet, because if it fails and somebody gets hurt they are going to have to be responsible for it .

tine · Rehab Dropout...

that would really peev you if you just bought some expensive helmets that can not be drilled,,

dessert-people · Rehab Dropout...

smipson also make a fia approve device that does not need a hans cert helmet . cams have really done there home work on this issue .

dessert-people · Rehab Dropout...

i speld simpson rong

Buggy924 · Powerhouse Poster

I use a Zamp helmet. It is Snell 2010 compliant and also fitted with Hans posts. The tag inside is marked as Snell 2010H. They start at around USD $200 for the basic side air feed or top air feed. It costs $50.00 in freight from the states.

www.zamp-racing.com/auto.html

bc201081 · Newbie

Buggy924 wrote:
I use a Zamp helmet. It is Snell 2010 compliant and also fitted with Hans posts. The tag inside is marked as Snell 2010H. They start at around USD $200 for the basic side air feed or top air feed. It costs $50.00 in freight from the states.

www.zamp-racing.com/auto.html

Are you happy with your Zamp Helmet? I bought the Hans compatible Zamp helmets for myself & navigator about 2 years ago and would have to say they are the worst fitting helmets I have ever worn. maybe my head is an odd shape!

Buggy924 · Powerhouse Poster

There are a couple of us who use the Zamp helmets in Melbourne. We have had them for a couple of years and the fit fine. I purchased a couple the 2010H rated RZ-34H with top air feed last year. I have tried other brands and some of them did not feel comfortable. Everyone need to decide the helmet that best suits them, but it also comes down to costs for the budget racer. I do not have $1000 for a carbon fiber helmet. The important thing to remember is that a helmet meets the required standard then comfort and finally cost.

jones off road · Rehab Dropout...

I just bought a zamp for the kids and their trophykarts, terrible fitting helmet......but hey, it's pre drilled for my new necksgen brace that won't comply soon!
I wonder if cams take on the karts if they will enforce these stupid rules?
someone in the cams decision makers definitely have shares with the fia style companies, and everyone thought unions were corrupt?

Axle · Regular Poster

New to the forum, but have read with interest for a few years. I've been involved in off road racing at some level since 1978 and have seen a lot come and go. Jeez I have so many formats of cams license for off road to fill an album. I remember some top cams bloke telling us about a passbook license structure where you pay your money each year and supply another photo that gets clag glued into your book. It was meant to be a 10 year portfolio. Lasted 2 years then changed. Any decision maker, must be held accountable for rule changes that affects its members hip pockets. This compulsory requirement for HANS is one of those decisions. Nip any derision in the bud with solid evidence where unit A is accepted while unit B is not. Back up any reason for a "compulsory" requirement with good reason, be it insurance , medical experts or "they're doing it in Europe so we'd better do it too". Suggestions of rule makers having shares in the FIA style companies,while may be tongue in cheek now, will fester until some more credible reasons are forthcoming. Who are the decision makers and where are they getting their advice ?

Stingray 2212 · Rehab Dropout...

Good post Axle. Im guessing you might be related to a couple of guns in another sport I follow, professional cycling. I used cycling as an example to someone the other day of a very dangerous sport that has a governing body that accepts the competitors take a risk by competing & they very much understand that risk. Many pro cyclists have died over the years but the governing body doesn't keep coming up with things like them wearing body armour.

shane · Regular Poster

hi guys just purchased 2 of the latest necksgen neck braces for myself and nav . we are both new to offroad racing we went through the process of trying everything the shop had and found the necksgen the most comfortable . was told that I had made a good choice because the hanns device must suit each driver and seat because of the fixed angle . ie nav jumping from car to car with different seats and lay back angles may not work . also after 12 months do I have to go and buy a hanns , that I didn't like .

Stingray 2212 · Rehab Dropout...

If they are not FIA rated then yes, you have to replace them. I agree with all the reasons you bought them over a fixed one. The other thing is that for a car owner that has different navigators an adjustable system makes much more sense. How they expect a driver to buy a "one size fits all" device for navigators is beyond me. Crazy rules made by crazy people.

Axle · Regular Poster

This whole topic has created a situation where I find myself getting a bit miffed. We as competitors want to participate in our chosen sport while attempting to adhere to the rules laid down by our governing body . In this case the CAMS. The CAMS themselves have aligned to the rules of governance as outlined by the FIA. This all sounds simple so far, but, we now have a situation where it appears "what we say and what we do" are two totally different things. Formula one is the top echelon of racing in the FIA stable. It is the top of the pile when it comes to flagship money earners, and it attracts many many viewers world wide. How is it then that an Australian event , sanctioned by an organisation that is "looking out for competitor safety" allows a "race" with a supercar attaining speeds of 220 kmh plus between cement walls less that 15m apart while wearing a lap sash seat belt and no HANS device. youtu.be/3RuUp5MT3Uc Hope the link works , if it doesn't , look up Melb GP 2014 speed comparison on youtube. Mick Doohan in a magnificent merc. 3 cars on the track all trying to reach the finish line before the others, means a race to me. The requirement of compulsory HANS devices may have been suggested by CAMS five years ago but their sudden implementation without warning and without due consideration for members purchasing legitimate equipment in the ensuing period is ,.....i'm trying to find a word but it's just "crap, unfair, unjustified, unsporting, crap or just plain bank ballance breaking shitty.

shane · Regular Poster

why would I want to replace my necksgen with a hanns that only gives me front and back support and no lateral support . the cars do roll sideways or do cams not know this .

rivmasta9 · Powerhouse Poster

Probably not all that helpful but...

HANS wins judgment against rival manufacturer NASCAR's and IndyCar's preferred maker of head-and-neck-support devices deserves $302,000 from a competitor that infringed on its patent, in violation of a settlement, a federal judge ruled. Robert Hubbard, a retired professor of biomechanical engineering at Michigan State, began developing the head-and-neck-support, or HANS, device in the 1980s to protect against basilar skull fractures that race-car drivers can sustain if their heads whip forward in a crash. Hubbard's company, HANS Performance Products, sued Kevin Heath Enterprises (KHE) in 2010 for infringing on its patent, and the companies reached a settlement the next year that required KHE to discontinue making its neck support device, the DefNder G70, or any device "no more than colorably different" from the DefNder G70. Kevin Heath, as president of KHE, signed the agreement in his official capacity, but during negotiations, he registered a new company, NecksGen Inc., which began marketing a similar neck brace in 2012. The NecksGen device is sold worldwide, except in Georgia, as Heath hoped to avoid another lawsuit by HANS there. Nevertheless, U.S. District Judge William Duffey Jr. in Atlanta found Health and NecksGen in contempt of the consent order Monday because "the NecksGen device is no more than colorably different than the DefNder G70 device."

Source http://www.courthousenews.com/2014/01/10/64427.htm

I understand this refers to the original NecksGen but not the latest 2014 "Rev" model which is substantially different and therefore I assume not violating patents.

-- Edited by rivmasta9 on Monday 21st of April 2014 06:31:12 PM

-- Edited by rivmasta9 on Monday 21st of April 2014 06:31:56 PM

Stingray 2212 · Rehab Dropout...

A message on the SFI web page.

http://www.sfifoundation.com/sfi-responds-to-recent-cams-announcement/

dessert-people · Rehab Dropout...

its interest to see that to get a fia certified produce, you need a sfi certificate . if its good enough for john force its good enough me .

spoiltone · Rehab Dropout...

i like the necksgen, and thats what i want to buy, looks the most comfie. dont like the idea of the large bits down the front. being a larger guy.

shane · Regular Poster

contacted necksgen and got a nice quick reply they said they are in the process of getting there neck braces FIA accredited so hopefully we will have a choice soon