1887 wrote:

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   az i agree you cant stop people spending money ,  let them spend it. but to make it even just put on a limiting strap which is pretty cheap .you could even put a seal on the strap bolts so you only have to measure once at the begining of the year or if the seal is broken, also to run up a class you only have to remove the strap . 

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I still fail to see the purpose of using suspension to divide divisions.  We've built the suspension for our car, 20" front, 22" rear.  Thats pretty standard for any car being built now.  Anthony and Kelvins cars (both new, both beam cars) have more travel in the rear than ours, less in the front. All I can see you're proposal doing is separating older cars from newer.  How does that help the future of the sport?

Unless we're discussing a budget class I cant see a reason to do it. Im obviously missing your point! 

So you'd rather see 3ltr instead of 4? perhaps with the turbo rule back so that you could go with big 4, small v6 or turbo/blown small 4?

I must admit, I still like the proposal being put forward.  4ltr n/a opens up options for honda, mitsubishi, nissan, toyota and holden v6's as well as lexus motors, all of which can be run without having to put in an albins box.

Classes via the proposal being put forward would basically be v8s and turbos, v6's, 4cyls.  I like it!

Class 6 is still there for state,this is a restricted class for anybody who wants to be restricted

az

 i think you missed my point what im trying to say is i think it would be fairer if we had a system like this.

      pro class   1-2 seats up to 6ltr

      pro lite     1-2seats   up to 3.6 ltr

     super buggy  1-2 seats  up to 6ltr 14'' wheel travel

     super lite     1-2 seats  up to 1650 14'' wheel travel 

     modified      1-2 seats  prodution 2wd-4wd 

     pro mod     1-2 seats    modified 2wd-4wd

    this way ever one still fits a class i know that class 3 would have to run up a class but you could put a weight break in for them for a say a year or two ,it gives a easy progression if you want you could just change motors to move up/down classes, or put big arms with more travel ,or if you were just stating out ,import a jimco stap it down, run in a lower class ,that way it limits its potential. then all you have to do is change the straps and you up to what ever classes is for you.

 

At last we get some information on your ideas.

Now, look at stingrays suggestion that AUS 1 will not finish in the top 10 with 6" of wheel travel. I would have to agree with that. However limit AUS 1 to 14" and guess what, he's back in the top 10 at 4 out of 5 races. I can think of many cars that have finished at both State and national level in the top 10 with less than 14" of travel and smaller engines than AUS 1.

The new Proposal is simple. It's easy for competitors, prospective competitors AND spectators alike to understand, and should be given the green light in my opinion!

I better do some work now, or I will lose my job as well as my mind.....or some may say the latter has already occured.

 I have decided to express these veiws from my 20yrs experience in off-road (imagine how much i have spent!). last count i have actually owned/driven 19 different vehicles, in almost all classes over the years. i started as an apprentice earning $120 a week and was able to race, gradually getting better vehicles as my income grew, up to what i have now.

 the thing about off road is regardless of budget, there is room for everyone to fit in, and to this day it is still the case.  but who ever knew that we would see the surge of new usa and home built big budget cars that exist now, and enough numbers of them for some competitive racing (at the pointy end).  we cannot begrudge the people with the finance for the 'big cars' as they will probably be the people who will keep the sport going into the future. read on.

 (my theory) these new cars & investment in them will bring the spotlight on our sport through t.v. etc.  people spending big dollars would probably like some sponsors, and of course to show off their machines. if this does not happen the sport will remain stagnent. how often do speedweek go to colo or crookwell?  this exposure will start from the top, not from club level, but it will benefit all of us eventually.

 we need 'joe blo' to know what off road is. he does'nt leave his loungeroom to go to kempsey or mildura, he flicks channels from supercars to rally.  maybe one day he might flick to off road! do you really think after his few beers he will understand 9 classes of cars (with 5 classes all looking the same) and then try to figure the results at the end when there might not be any finishers in some classes due to lack of numbers. by the end of the channel surfing, and a few more beers, joe can't tell the difference between the commodores & the fords.

 the new classes developed have been long required. the big$ boys go play class 1 and spend $, the medium$ boys (like myself) can play in class 2 where i might now be competitive. the current class 2 boys (best class there is!) remain unscathed. the rest all fit in & budget racers can go class 6.  and guess what? joe blo might have a bit more chance of understanding the results (after a berrocca).

  our sport has survived APPROPRIATELY as required to keep our events going. it has survived on family generations & relations getting personally introduced to the sport. NOT from the average joe blo. if the current system is so good, then why are we contemplating this? we all need joe to help us! lets give it a go, t.v.and sponsors might follow. people might even come to tracks to watch & camp etc. we might even get an 'aussie dust to glory' documentary (look how long it took the yanks).

 i for one am sick of trying to explain the current classes to people-- lets make it happen-i like seeing myself on telly!

I do sort of agree with jones that we need the promotion capabilities of the top running cars however I do not see the problem with the number of classes at all. I do not understand how rally works eg. 2 wheel drive, front wheel drive, 4 wheel drive, state, national etc. And I also do not understand how drag racing works eg. door slammer, top fuel, street legal, dial your own etc. But this does not stop me from watching them and enjoying them and if I really wanted to know how the classes worked in these forms of motorsport I would soon find out. What I am trying to say is that if someone is in the least bit interested in offroad racing they too could soon understand the classes , it's not rocket science you know.

Also on the wheel travel limitation I think a better limiter would be tyre size. For example you could say that a maximum tyre size for class 1 was 235\75\16 or 9.5r15 this would limit wheel travel automaticaly because you soon run out of ground clearance in a hurry. It would also even out the problem of high power cars as there is only so much power you can put to the ground with a narrow tyre. It is also very easy to police as all this info is printed on the outside of the tyre. You could also continue the trend down the classes eg. class 2 max 215\75\16 and class 3 205\75\16. I think it could work but maybe thats just my opinion.

I do also have to stick up for class 3 here as nobody seems to care too much at the moment what happens to it. The reason that class 3 has low numbers at national level at the moment is because most of the people from class 3 of prevoius years have made the step up to class 2. Those of you that have been around a while would know that class 2 had the same problem with low numbers going back a little over 10 years ago. This was due to class 2 drivers making the move to class 1. I think if you look back far enough you will find that it goes in cycles and in my opinion class 3 is still an entry level class to national competition. The engine options for class 3 are very good at the moment eg Toyota, Daihatsu,Suzuki all making good reliable powerplants that make very good power in std form. This is a class that you can still get away quite safely with a Kombi box and nowdays thats even hard to do in class 2. I think that killing of class 3 would be a bad move if we are looking at trying to get new peolpe into the sport at national level and I am sure that as the next generation of offroaders start to come through we will see class 3 return to it's former glory.

Firstly I wish to congratulate the AORC on the proposed changes as they seem fair & allow all existing cars to continue to run.

I don't see an issue with class 5 cars competing against old class 7 cars as it's cheaper & easier to develope a class 5 car that can over come the 4X4 advantage. At the later stages of my class 5's development there weren't many class 7 cars at the state level that could beat it.

I don't see how having classes with limited suspension travel is going to assist the growth of the sport as it will bring us back to where we are today with many classes that will just confuse the average punter that may show some interest in the sport.

I also don't see the point of limiting the use of new technologies, materials & parts. If it wasn't for the R&D done by the guys with big budgets we wouldn't be where we are today. Everything they do flows down to us the average person with a limited budget.

I only have limited experience in the sport & have only competed in class 5 but I enjoyed the challenge of making a standard car able to compete in offroading. Whilst competing in class 5 my suspension was continually being revised & then just when I thought it was OK I would find a little more HP which ment I was back to the drawing board. I personally believe that your suspesion requirements are directly proportionate to your engines output. If you have mega horsepower it would be wasted on a car with limited travel & visa versa heaps of travel with limited HP what's the point, you couldn't take full advantage of it.


That's my 2 cents worth.

Stingray 2212,

 

Following on from your post regarding the number of class 3's at national events, In an earlier post by KMD,

Kick my dog wrote:

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In a word, yes. Class 3 at AORC level has been averaging 1.5 vehicles per race in 2005.

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It seems to me that the maths just isn't correct.  6 national events, 27 vehicles equates to an average of 4.5 class 3's at each national round.  Now if you look at the proposed class 2 of vehicles 1650 cc to 4,000 cc from last years entries in the AORC, the total number of vehicles eligible fot that class were 32 cars, so how much are we really gaining?  Splitting it down further to each round of the AORC, there was only 1 race out of 5 of the rounds that had more entries in the new proposed class 2 than what there was in class 3 and that was Finke.  The other round, Hyden, had the same number of entries in each class.  Splitting it down even further, there was only 3 cars of the new proposed class 2 that competed in 2 different events at National level where as class 3 had 2 cars do 2 events, 1 car do 3 events and 1 car did 5 events !!  Why are we wanting to penalize the people that make an effort to do the national rounds by cancelling that class and introducing another class that someone can win the national championship of that class by going to 2 events?

 

Looking at the results from the national events last year, at 3 of the events, we had 3 different vehicles from the new proposed class 2 finish in the top ten,  however at all 6 events, there was at least one class 2 that finished in the top ten with 8 different cars finishing in  11 top ten positions for the year.  It was said by 2204 that this new class 2, you won't have to worry about racing the big boys in class one but you will get humiliated by some of the current class 2's and not even big dollar cars !!

 

It seems to me that almost everyone worries about their class only and not the big picture in general.  It appears we all want our own class to run in so we all get to take a trophy home at the end of the day but the sport is much bigger than that.  I race off road for so many reasons and getting a trophy doesn't make the list.  I could get as many trophies made for much less than we all spend on racing if that is all we want, but it is a family sport, we are there just as much for the people, we all have a heap of fun doing it, we don't need to do it on the roads and so many more reasons.  I can't see having many classes as being a problem as it is there in other sports aswell.  I watched some boat racing on SBS and there would have had to be at least 6 different classes and they showed footage of all the boats and apart from speed, I had no idea how the classes were structured.  At the end when they put the results up on the screen of each individual classes, there was only 2 or 3 boats in some of the classes.  At least with the numbering system we have, people will have more of an idea of how it works.

 

I think that the proposed idea is a good one except for the new class 2 and dropping class 3.  I haven't been able to look at class 4 yet to see if it could even be made fairer by allowing the Baja's to race in class 5 depending on the times for the Baja's and class 5's at both state and national level.  I don't think that them being in with the trucks is a fair idea either.  Classes can be amalgamated depending on numbers at each individual event so it would be better to separate class 1 at the event if the numbers are there to have their own class.

 

Regards,

Michael

Well Said Mike.   You have sumed it up better than I could have... One thing I don't agree with is maybe some of these people need to realise where the dollars for Media coverage is most likely to come from to pay for this so called T.V coverage that everyone is so keen to have (when the griffith club organises it and we have to get on the phone to get the numbers for our event ).     

The dollars are most likely to come form a manfucture and it is not going to look real good for the likes of Pickering when mitsubishi have to sprook that they have won their class and then the people see he was raceing against the mighty val and a number of other standard class 5 cars,  if you say production 2 & 4wd most of the original class 5 cars that might challenge someone like pickering will now be moved in to class 4.

I quite like the sound of the new class 2, but i just can not  understand why we would want to make a class that is so close to class one, and then go and combine classes like 5&7 and 4&8 this seem heaps harder to understand to me anyway.

As for class 9 This is a great idea and i feel you should be allowed to go solo in any class.

I also hope that you leave suspension alone as it takes a lot more than just having heaps of travel to win a race or your class.

By the way vicshmick is the man

-- Edited by have fun at 18:56, 2006-03-17

One thing everyone seems to have missed is the one or two seat rule.I cant see anyone who's trying to be competitive wanting to carry 80 to 100kg of navigator for nothing thus virtualy 1/2 competitor numbers.This will impact clubs by lower membership numbers and maybe even cams licence costs would be pushed up if there was only 1/2 as many issued.I hope at least we can address this problem as how can we bring new blood into the sport if we cant take them for a ride,there are 3 navigators in my house alone plus several other people who have been brave (or silly) enough to hop in 2 witch have since brought their own cars.This to me is proof enough that we shouldnt be allowing one seat in all classes.              

960mike, when you did that math you seem to have left out the class 2's that would move up to the new class 2, there is a few that i know would, as well as the class 9's that would.  As for the arguement from 577 about everyone getting rid of their navigators, why would you, sure its less wieght but i for one like having someone else there to help remember the track, especially the danger signs when i don't see them(and talk to when the car breaks).As for limiting the suspension to reduce the expense 1887, come and have a look at wolf's, ian's or my buggy and you'll see that you don't have to spend alot to get travel

I personally like the proposed classes and there is still the entry level classes 3 & 6 at state level, but when you go to a AORC race it will cost you more to run in any class, it cost more  now,Entry fee's are more,you have to travel further and to run at the pointy end of any class at the AORC level you have to spend more money than a state race,that's just a fact of life

I agree with jonesy & we need the t.v coverage to get the sponsers into the sport to help even if it is just to lower the entry fee's and maybe get some good  prize money to help you with expenses

thats just my two cents and some people might disagree

-- Edited by 2204 at 21:55, 2006-03-19

-- Edited by 2204 at 21:57, 2006-03-19

There may be disparity within class 1 however this class has been around in its current state long enough for competitors to either catch up or drop down to class 2.

 

Some of the quick class 2 cars are not that far behind class 1. Check Griffith last year.

 

With all the talk about the need to reduce classes (which I don’t think is justified) over the last few years I am amused that some are even considering creating a new class to accommodate a few people who find themselves behind the game due to poor choice. The proposed “new class 2 car” when taken the limit will be right amongst the top 10 class 1 cars, if they can prepare and steer the thing.

 

Is this really what we want?

 

While talking about disparity have a think about a 1330cc car with two 100kg persons aboard trying to stay in touch with a 1650cc car with one 100kg person aboard. This disparity is not being caused by these class 3 competitors ineptness.

 

If such a change is brought in then provide a 3 year plan to enable these competitors to “use up” their motors and upgrade as they finish their service life.

 

My final note is to the person who sugested crack testing, x-raying and surface scanning race cars every 2 years. What medication are you on. Think about it.

 

Keep racing, have fun and enjoy the thrill

 

If either of you guys would be happy to sell an old frame you had laying around to a virgin offroader with little or no understanding of the mechanics of a race car without checking to see if the frame is still legal or safe then so be it you are all talking about making the sport more proffesional surely safety must be above all other considerations ( motor size class etc ) the cost to have your frame checked every two years would be less than a set of rear tyres a small price for piece of mind